Regarding SNES' object limitations

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turboxray
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:56 am

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by turboxray »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:54 am
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:51 am 128 hardware sprites != 128 objects. In that video, the freeze frame shot with 128 OAM entries, only 31-33 objects are actually on screen (that doesn't include the starfield). It's 128 hardware sprites because the snes doesn't have more optimal sprite sizes. If I were to convert that exact scene to PCE or MD, it would be ~49 hardware sprites for those same ~31 objects. I've seen Batman Returns on the SNES hit 128 entries.. with just 3 clowns on screen + snow.

@MSonage
The length capture videos are nice, but it would much more insightful to have a frame lag overlay (like digital foundry). Has none does this??? Most slowdown I've looked at in the 16bit generation tends to be 50% (one missed frame), but I seen stuff like Super R-Type do like a 3,2,3,2,3,2 stager slowdown (Irem was just ridiculous). I wouldn't doubt it that Gradius 3 (original setup) is the same in some areas. But it'd be nice to have a frame rate analysis to see it more clearly.
I'm sure you could do various things on the other consoles. What does that have to do with the clearly amazing achievement here on SNES relative to the SNES' capabilities, and how they went from a game with abysmal slowdown to a game with basically irrelevant slowdown to any normal gamers?

And, sure, you might find having a frame lag overlay much more insightful. Maybe they can add that in a future video for your benefit. I found the comparison very meaningful as is, and I appreciate the effort put into both the optimisation work done here and the video very clearly showing off some of the benefits.
Since you're still new to all of this, I was simply pointing out that what is a brag is actually a deficiency; that 128 hardware sprites is not the same thing as 128 objects - especially considering the situation. Do you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?

As for the slowdown and the optimizations made... you know, some of us actually code and like the know the details and metrics of things. Weird, huh? It's also a project that I've been following and interested in. I actually like the fastrom+optimization hack over the SA-1 patch. SA-1 is for the gamers, the fastrom+optimization is for the coders and such.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:34 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:54 am
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:51 am 128 hardware sprites != 128 objects. In that video, the freeze frame shot with 128 OAM entries, only 31-33 objects are actually on screen (that doesn't include the starfield). It's 128 hardware sprites because the snes doesn't have more optimal sprite sizes. If I were to convert that exact scene to PCE or MD, it would be ~49 hardware sprites for those same ~31 objects. I've seen Batman Returns on the SNES hit 128 entries.. with just 3 clowns on screen + snow.

@MSonage
The length capture videos are nice, but it would much more insightful to have a frame lag overlay (like digital foundry). Has none does this??? Most slowdown I've looked at in the 16bit generation tends to be 50% (one missed frame), but I seen stuff like Super R-Type do like a 3,2,3,2,3,2 stager slowdown (Irem was just ridiculous). I wouldn't doubt it that Gradius 3 (original setup) is the same in some areas. But it'd be nice to have a frame rate analysis to see it more clearly.
I'm sure you could do various things on the other consoles. What does that have to do with the clearly amazing achievement here on SNES relative to the SNES' capabilities, and how they went from a game with abysmal slowdown to a game with basically irrelevant slowdown to any normal gamers?

And, sure, you might find having a frame lag overlay much more insightful. Maybe they can add that in a future video for your benefit. I found the comparison very meaningful as is, and I appreciate the effort put into both the optimisation work done here and the video very clearly showing off some of the benefits.
Since you're still new to all of this, I was simply pointing out that what is a brag is actually a deficiency; that 128 hardware sprites is not the same thing as 128 objects - especially considering the situation. Do you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?

As for the slowdown and the optimizations made... you know, some of us actually code and like the know the details and metrics of things. Weird, huh? It's also a project that I've been following and interested in. I actually like the fastrom+optimization hack over the SA-1 patch. SA-1 is for the gamers, the fastrom+optimization is for the coders and such.
No one is "bragging" right now. "Especially considering the situation"--what? Why are you bringing the other consoles into this conversation in such a way and turning it into a console war? Why are you feeling compelled to diminish something very impressive on the console? It's just SNES doing something dang impressive on SNES, and it's being acknowledged as such by someone in the SNESdev forum.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
turboxray
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:56 am

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by turboxray »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:04 am
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:34 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:54 am
I'm sure you could do various things on the other consoles. What does that have to do with the clearly amazing achievement here on SNES relative to the SNES' capabilities, and how they went from a game with abysmal slowdown to a game with basically irrelevant slowdown to any normal gamers?

And, sure, you might find having a frame lag overlay much more insightful. Maybe they can add that in a future video for your benefit. I found the comparison very meaningful as is, and I appreciate the effort put into both the optimisation work done here and the video very clearly showing off some of the benefits.
Since you're still new to all of this, I was simply pointing out that what is a brag is actually a deficiency; that 128 hardware sprites is not the same thing as 128 objects - especially considering the situation. Do you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?

As for the slowdown and the optimizations made... you know, some of us actually code and like the know the details and metrics of things. Weird, huh? It's also a project that I've been following and interested in. I actually like the fastrom+optimization hack over the SA-1 patch. SA-1 is for the gamers, the fastrom+optimization is for the coders and such.
No one is "bragging" right now. Why are you bringing the other consoles into this conversation in such a way and turning into into a console war? "Especially considering the situation". Why are you feeling compelled to diminish something very impressive on the console? It's just SNES doing something dang impressive on SNES, and it's being acknowledged as such by someone in the SNESdev forum.
Because facts are facts, and you have a slippery grasp on this kind of stuff. Things need perspective.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:13 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:04 am
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:34 am

Since you're still new to all of this, I was simply pointing out that what is a brag is actually a deficiency; that 128 hardware sprites is not the same thing as 128 objects - especially considering the situation. Do you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?

As for the slowdown and the optimizations made... you know, some of us actually code and like the know the details and metrics of things. Weird, huh? It's also a project that I've been following and interested in. I actually like the fastrom+optimization hack over the SA-1 patch. SA-1 is for the gamers, the fastrom+optimization is for the coders and such.
No one is "bragging" right now. Why are you bringing the other consoles into this conversation in such a way and turning into into a console war? "Especially considering the situation". Why are you feeling compelled to diminish something very impressive on the console? It's just SNES doing something dang impressive on SNES, and it's being acknowledged as such by someone in the SNESdev forum.
Because facts are facts, and you have a slippery grasp on this kind of stuff. Things need perspective.
Why are you getting personal?

I'm not debating any facts. You don't have to convince or educate me of the difference between an object as defined in the official SNES developer manuals, a sprite as the commonly used term by most people, how many objects the SNES can store and access in OAM, how sprites can be made up of multiple objects, or whatever else. I didn't ask anyone what the specific definitions and differences between each were. I asked about the content of the video and used the same wording as in the video. And I'm simply acknowledging some awesome work done by some guys on a SNES game in the SNESdev forum.

I'd rather stick to talking about the amazing work done on the game and the video. Is that okay with you?
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
MSonage
Posts: 22
Joined: Fri May 06, 2022 4:34 pm

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by MSonage »

turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:51 am 128 hardware sprites != 128 objects. In that video, the freeze frame shot with 128 OAM entries, only 31-33 objects are actually on screen (that doesn't include the starfield). It's 128 hardware sprites because the snes doesn't have more optimal sprite sizes. If I were to convert that exact scene to PCE or MD, it would be ~49 hardware sprites for those same ~31 objects. I've seen Batman Returns on the SNES hit 128 entries.. with just 3 clowns on screen + snow.

@MSonage
The length capture videos are nice, but it would much more insightful to have a frame lag overlay (like digital foundry). Has none does this??? Most slowdown I've looked at in the 16bit generation tends to be 50% (one missed frame), but I seen stuff like Super R-Type do like a 3,2,3,2,3,2 stager slowdown (Irem was just ridiculous). I wouldn't doubt it that Gradius 3 (original setup) is the same in some areas. But it'd be nice to have a frame rate analysis to see it more clearly.
I don't have a program for that.
But I once counted each frame to a second during Gradius 3's bubble stage. It hits 20 fps, less than half the original speed.
Pretty crazy thing.
I also did this with Super Ghouls N Ghosts, this one stays at 30 fps in the heaviest parts.

I remember Joe & Mac hitting something below 20 fps, because this game is originally 30 fps for some reason.
https://youtu.be/D4VNvihRRWM?t=98
Joe & Mac 2 is much smoother, perfect 60 fps.
93143
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Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:31 pm

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by 93143 »

turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:34 amDo you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?
There's a terminology issue here. Nintendo's official name for a hardware sprite is "object" (OBJ). The common non-programmer term for a metasprite is "sprite", and "metasprite" itself is unofficial and not universal. The occasionally-seen term "actor" is even less universal, having the additional disadvantage of not making much sense for some uses of sprites.

As long as context makes the meaning clear, it's probably best to be a bit flexible.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

93143 wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:03 pm
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:34 amDo you know the difference between an object and a hardware sprite?
There's a terminology issue here. Nintendo's official name for a hardware sprite is "object" (OBJ). The common non-programmer term for a metasprite is "sprite", and "metasprite" itself is unofficial and not universal. The occasionally-seen term "actor" is even less universal, having the additional disadvantage of not making much sense for some uses of sprites.

As long as context makes the meaning clear, it's probably best to be a bit flexible.
Exactly.

Also, we're in the SNESdev forum and not the Genesis or PC Engine forums, so I would think that rather than some PC Engine fan coming in here and telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and dictating what I should be calling objects and sprites and so on:
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:13 am Because facts are facts, and you have a slippery grasp on this kind of stuff. Things need perspective.
The amount of talking down and [misplaced] hubris there . . .

When I actually do now try to use the correct names and context for objects and sprites, etc, based on the official Nintendo developer documentation (and I was simply using the same naming as the video in this case because that's what I was directly referring to), they might at least try to consider the official naming Nintendo used for SNES when in the SNESdev forum and not personally attack and insult someone who actually does try to do that.

It's clear to me, however, that they didn't have any intention of being amicable when replying to any of my posts.

I bet the mods don't care to notice or warn anyone for that--or probably they'll just warn me again.

But, I've had enough of that and just want to get back to the improvement patch and video, and find our more about maximising the SNES' full potential, which is actually interesting.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:00 pm, edited 13 times in total.
turboxray
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:56 am

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by turboxray »

MSonage wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:45 am
turboxray wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:51 am 128 hardware sprites != 128 objects. In that video, the freeze frame shot with 128 OAM entries, only 31-33 objects are actually on screen (that doesn't include the starfield). It's 128 hardware sprites because the snes doesn't have more optimal sprite sizes. If I were to convert that exact scene to PCE or MD, it would be ~49 hardware sprites for those same ~31 objects. I've seen Batman Returns on the SNES hit 128 entries.. with just 3 clowns on screen + snow.

@MSonage
The length capture videos are nice, but it would much more insightful to have a frame lag overlay (like digital foundry). Has none does this??? Most slowdown I've looked at in the 16bit generation tends to be 50% (one missed frame), but I seen stuff like Super R-Type do like a 3,2,3,2,3,2 stager slowdown (Irem was just ridiculous). I wouldn't doubt it that Gradius 3 (original setup) is the same in some areas. But it'd be nice to have a frame rate analysis to see it more clearly.
I don't have a program for that.
But I once counted each frame to a second during Gradius 3's bubble stage. It hits 20 fps, less than half the original speed.
Pretty crazy thing.
I also did this with Super Ghouls N Ghosts, this one stays at 30 fps in the heaviest parts.
Interesting. It always felt like SGnG went below 30fps. I also wonder if there are any games right on the edge, where when played on a pal system - the longer frame helps reduce the slow down (or results in "jutter" slow down).
I remember Joe & Mac hitting something below 20 fps, because this game is originally 30 fps for some reason.
https://youtu.be/D4VNvihRRWM?t=98
Joe & Mac 2 is much smoother, perfect 60 fps.
That's crazy! Do you know if people are digging into the code and documenting some of these things? From a programming and historical perspective, it would really interesting finds.
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dougeff
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Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by dougeff »

Super Ghouls & Ghosts has a fastROM patch that fixes slowdown.

https://youtu.be/siwZTorWw2E
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

dougeff wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:59 pm Super Ghouls & Ghosts has a fastROM patch that fixes slowdown.

https://youtu.be/siwZTorWw2E
Yeah, there's actually quite a few games with FastROM patches now, and they're all appreciated.

As I recall, I think all these games have FastROM patches:

Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts
Contra III
Axelay
U.N. Squadron
F-Zero
Gradius III
Castlevania IV

And probably a few more I've forgotten.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
turboxray
Posts: 348
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:56 am

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by turboxray »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:35 pmsome PC Engine fan coming in here and telling me I don't know what I'm talking about and dictating what I should be calling objects and sprites and so on:
Heyo. I personally don't see things in a child-like black and white way, where someone can only be a fan of one systems (such as a self-proclaimed snes fanboi as yourself). I know that probably doesn't fit within your console war mentality, but it's a thing. Just for the record, I've been here for years. So no, I'm not just "coming in here". Thanks for your understanding, and you're welcome.

Secondly, I didn't tell you or dictate anything to you. I saying you're confusing 128 "hardware sprites" with 128 "game-level objects".. meta-objects.. "actors". Yet again you failed to understand what was said to you. This isn't about language/terms - is this about what is a "game object" and what is a "hardware sprite". The concepts, not labels.

93143 is talking about how SNES scene also uses the term "object" inter-changeably with "sprite", because of official documentation, and to be careful and make sure people understand context of what "object" means if it's going to be used. Outside the SNES world, "object" has a pretty abstraction meaning - but 93143 is right.

Hopefully you understand now, and can go back and re-read what I wrote so that it makes sense.
lidnariq
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Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by lidnariq »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 1:35 pm I bet the mods don't care to notice or warn anyone for that--or probably they'll just warn me again.
Turboxray has actually been a positive contributor for these forums since he joined three years ago.

You, on the other hand, have been exclusively a source of "how bad does he have to get before it's finally time to force him to leave?"

The most positive thing we can say in your favor is that maybe you've caused some people to be more public with their announcements about what they're doing as far as SNESdev goes. But at the same time you've also driven a bunch of people away, so your presence is probably net negative.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Yeah, I knew it. Well, I've done that other thing, so read that and whatever. I'm not commenting on this off-topic stuff in here anymore. If you let it continue, and one-sided, letting the guy make personal insults and so on too, that's your choice, not mine.

And, count how many threads on the front page were created by me since I joined (most of which are pretty interesting and valuable topics and questions to bring up and talk about as far as I'm concerned), and even how many total comments I've made in this forum in general since I joined, what, like a few months ago--that's probably the best contribution I've made here since I joined.

And what I have noticed regarding people coming and going is two people who have started posting far more regularly in the last little while, usually in my threads, and mostly just to troll me by doing little more than nit-picking every little thing even remotely positive I say about the SNES, which you're either not noticing or are totally cool with. Three years you say: How many of his couple hundred posts in that time were before he started trolling me? How many threads created in three years in the cause of SNES development? How much actual positive SNES contribution? And maybe really check the same for TrekkiesUnite.... But, that's just my personal observation, and I have no doubt whatsoever that yours will differ greatly from mine.

Happy to ignore all that and get back to talking about the SNES in this SNESdev forum though. And hopefully people don't get too offended if I happen to big-up the SNES a little from time to time here in the SNESdev forum.
turboxray
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Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by turboxray »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:15 pmThree years you say..
More than three years. I went by tomaitheous and other names. I've been here since 10-15 years whatever.
lidnariq
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Re: Regarding SNES' object limitations

Post by lidnariq »

We're not having any more of this.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:15 pm if I happen to big-up the SNES a little from time to time here in the SNESdev forum.
Honestly, please don't do that. That's what has caused most of the problems.
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