nocash discussion

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Quietust
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Quietust »

Ben Boldt wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 am I would say that they added a bunch of extra junk that you don't need after Windows 98. Especially the interface of Windows XP became very bloated and plastic looking. Though you could still revert to the classic style at that time, I can see where you don't want or need that extra junk in there.
The trouble is, switching from Windows 98 to 2000/XP doesn't just change the interface - it also replaces the underlying kernel with one that's natively 32-bit and is far more stable (easily capable of managing multi-year uptimes without any performance degradation, which would actually be attainable since they haven't received any updates for the better part of a decade).
Oziphantom wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 3:27 am I don't see what 98 does better than 2000 or XP. 98 was a better 95 for sure, but I don't see what 2000 or XP does that makes it worse.
Maybe the transition from Windows 9x to Windows NT caused some sort of problem? I wouldn't expect that to happen unless you're dealing with exotic custom hardware with nonexistent drivers, but I don't know what sort of stuff he does.
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Pokun
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Pokun »

Yeah the leap from 98 to 2000 was supposedly pretty important and 2000 is generally considered the most stable version of Windows. The leap from 2000 and XP is said to be mostly cosmetic. I didn't really use Millennium nor 2000 since XP came out pretty fast after those and that's what came with my computer at the time, so I'm not speaking out of experience.

If you are just after simplicity I think it would be easier to just go Linux than sticking to 98 (or 2000/XP). The main problem with Linux is software compatibility with new programs, but I doubt it's worse than Windows 98 in that regard. Besides Linux probably has more useful tools for a technician than Windows has as part of the GNU/Linux community, and most distros have these easily available in their repositories when they are needed.

I think Nocash is unwilling to change the way he is working and therefore sticks to the old stuff. Linux would be a good solution in that case too, since the main Unix-like core of Linux never changes no matter how many new world-changing versions of Windows that Microsoft spits out, so you basically only have to learn it once. The same can't really be said about Linux desktop environments however, but I guess there are those that don't try to change too much as well (Xfce maybe?).
I guess the command line terminal emulator in Windows haven't changed too much either (at least not since pure DOS was scrapped with Windows 95 or so?). Microsoft did try to remove the basic terminal emulator at some point and replace it with PowerShell or something, thankfully customers didn't take that lightly.


If Nocash really refuses to get a job he did of course had it all coming.
Oziphantom
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Oziphantom »

XP SP3 has bloat like "being able to support HDD over 2GB" and other such trivial crap :P

But I think you may have actually icedentally hit the nail on the head.

DOS

2000 and XP relegate "DOS in a BOX" rather than real DOS. No more exit to pure DOS and get to fire all the INT's you want. You can make boot disks though. While Win98 does sit on top of true DOS and you can exit it to it and get a pure DOS environment.

Linux is mostly gastly today, Linux on a machine that runs Win98 is a horror show you don't want to go near. I though about running Linux on my P133 but nothing of the modern (super cut down support the oldest hardware) ones will support it, and finding a version with enough docs for a version that will run on it is "lost to the winds".
Pokun
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Pokun »

Right, the removal of pure DOS is also one thing I hate about modern Windows. Thankfully Linux will always have its native terminal mode or it would loose its status as a Unix-like, and not many people would accept such dramatic change.

Finding a complete Linux distro that works on an older systems might not be very easy anymore, but why would you want to do that? Getting a cheap semi-old computer good enough for Linux with a less demanding DE is probably cheaper than picking up an old computer. Assuming that we are still discussing putting together a cheap and timeless workstation.

I can think of many other reasons one wants to stick to Windows 98 though. Maybe you are very found of a certain laptop or other hardware that is unusable with a modern OS, or your favorite programs or games will only work on this system.
Drag
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Drag »

I'm sorry to say, but society evolved past 2000. :P

With that said, there's definitely ways to keep your main workstation on something like Win 2000 or NT, but it will come down to writing your own software and/or relying on a community, not unlike how we rely on each other for everything NES-related. :P

The web's a lost cause though; it's going to evolve regardless of what we want, so something like that will require virtualization (like this), or having a secondary PC for "modern" stuff while you continue to use the obsolete PC as your daily driver. It depends on what nocash wants to do, but if he's ok with investing in a raspberry pi, he's got options for bridging the gap between eras.
Shonumi
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Shonumi »

On the subject of nocash, I hope he's doing well, whatever the situation is regarding housing or choice of operating system. His documentation has always been top notch, and I hope he continues in the future. I really do miss the technical acumen he brought to numerous discussions here; it's always fun to read his insights. And as far as I know, NESdev is one of the few places he posts online and people have a chance to interact with him and share info.

Although to be fair, hasn't nocash been known to disappear for a few years at a time in the past? I remember some kind of hiatus in the mid-2000s or something like that.
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Bregalad
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Bregalad »

Ben Boldt wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 11:17 am I would say that they added a bunch of extra junk that you don't need after Windows 98. Especially the interface of Windows XP became very bloated and plastic looking. Though you could still revert to the classic style at that time, I can see where you don't want or need that extra junk in there.

The mind of a good engineer desires things to be as simple and efficient as possible, but not any simpler than that, and I respect it. You have these guys that have dozens of IoT devices around their house, play on the phone and social media all day, latest and greatest gaming PC and graphics cards, etc. They don't make good engineers. They would be good at marketing or art or something. It seems that nocash has that genuine engineering mentality but he does maybe go a step too simple at times.
Just to say I agree so much with you !
I can't count how many times I've been critiquized, but I don't see why they change interfaces so much. Business is not the issue, since both Gnome and KDE are just as guilty if not even worse than Windows. I suspect non-tech jobs having taking over the majority of the tech-industry is a part of why it went that way.

When it comes to Windows you can still revert to the good old interface until 7 included (even though a lot of things were affected in some way). I hate it how they put the weather or the news or whathever bullshit in the new versions.

The myth that linux is easy to install/use on older machines is largely a myth. In virtually all cases a modern computer equipped with a working internet connexion is required to fix issues by looing on internets forums.
Last edited by Bregalad on Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Pokun
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Pokun »

The thing with Linux is that it can be scaled down so that it works on much older hardware. But it probably takes a lot of effort if you are using very old hardware with it.

Yeah it seems developers of new systems and devices always puts a large, annoying and not seldom irremovable button in the middle of the graphical interface which is used to access the absolutely most useless, heavily advertised and non-removable piece of bloatware on the system, like: Cortana, Bing, Google Assistent, Bixby, a WAP internet browser on older phones, a particularly annoying news/weather thing, a poorly working voice assistant, Shitty Assistant, Whatever Assistant etc etc.

It seems the real world future just isn't as cool as it was meant to be in all those science fiction works from the '80s and earlier.

Drag wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:02 pm I'm sorry to say, but society evolved past 2000. :P
Evolution kinda implies that there is some kind of improvement. :P
I'm being a bit unfair though, there are many improvements since Windows 98 that I really like. Then again we have things like Windows 8... (No Microsoft, what works on a phone or tablet does not also necessarily work on a workstation.)
Oziphantom
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Oziphantom »

blame Apple. they add all this stuff, and have the press woo and croone over them for some reason. So MS have to update things other wise the get painted as "old and lame".

You can turn of the weather and news by right clicking on it and selecting News and Interests > Turn Off. you can also hide Cortana and the history scroll view thing.

Because nobody needs a Pentium 4, the PIII did everything a business needed and the computer market imploded, if we didn't keep making new software to drive up uses cases, then we wouldn't need new machines and the whole market would die, like it almost did with the P4.
Pokun
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Pokun »

Yeah business is definitely the driving factor. That includes KDE and Gnome, just because they are free and open-source doesn't mean they want to fall behind.

Wild changes can be a good thing if new and better ways to organize things are discovered, but I think it should be done systematically and after mastering the old techniques.
Apple and Microsoft aims to impress the audience a bit too much rather than trying to make their systems practical seamless upgrades. That's a problem for any company using the OS in their daily work, and having to re-educate the staff each time a new system comes out can't be good for their business.

The OS makers gets backlashes from customers when they do too arbitrary changes like Microsoft trying to remove the mentioned Windows command prompt, so there are at least customer pressure from both sides. Microsoft's argument for removing the command prompt terminal was that it's hardly used anymore, but that's definitely not true. I know it's used daily by many companies and developers, not in the least in forms of batch files and the like. I do that myself both at work and in private.

Well there is always a need for more powerful computers for their computing and graphic hardware, but yeah the OS itself and most office suite programs probably doesn't contain anything useful that couldn't be done on a Pentium III, so the system requirements are likely very bloated for business reasons.
Oziphantom
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Oziphantom »

selling CPUs and computers to the home market "isn't worth it", this is why Mac's where basically "not a viable business" for decades. Filling up the desk of every office worker, that is millions of machines with solid fixed update cycles.

But yeah MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint 5 is basically all 95% of people need for business and they run on a 486 just fine. But they do have lots of custom domain specific tools which got written in Java which sap your soul.


The problem with Windows is nobody thinks "I do everything in my life on this thing, I should actually spend 1 day learning how to use it". The number of people who are shocked when I do Win+E, then they ask me "how long has that be there" and I say "It was added in Win95" and that is longer than they have been alive. Ctrl + N is also a fun one in a web browser.
creaothceann
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by creaothceann »

Oziphantom wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:00 am Linux is mostly gastly today, Linux on a machine that runs Win98 is a horror show you don't want to go near. I though about running Linux on my P133 but nothing of the modern (super cut down support the oldest hardware) ones will support it, and finding a version with enough docs for a version that will run on it is "lost to the winds".
bump

Apparently Debian Wheezy might run on that.
http://helmet.kafuka.org/bboard/thread. ... =7169#7169 etc.
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jeffythedragonslayer
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by jeffythedragonslayer »

I emailed nocash just yesterday about viewtopic.php?p=279575 but I'll hold off on contacting him about other places in the fullsnes doc that I find confusing for awhile if he's having a tough time. If anyone knows of a good place to collect feedback on that doc, let me know.
Oziphantom
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by Oziphantom »

creaothceann wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:23 am
Oziphantom wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 1:00 am Linux is mostly gastly today, Linux on a machine that runs Win98 is a horror show you don't want to go near. I though about running Linux on my P133 but nothing of the modern (super cut down support the oldest hardware) ones will support it, and finding a version with enough docs for a version that will run on it is "lost to the winds".
bump

Apparently Debian Wheezy might run on that.
http://helmet.kafuka.org/bboard/thread. ... =7169#7169 etc.
The site states a P4 with 128MB of RAM as minimum for Wheezy, which I guess is actually above the Celeron766 that person is using but the Celeron is from the P4 era so might be a P4 core and needs 5GB of HDD. That is a long way from a P133. But thanks anyway.
assemblyx69
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Re: nocash discussion

Post by assemblyx69 »

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