Mode 5 colour limitations?

Discussion of hardware and software development for Super NES and Super Famicom. See the SNESdev wiki for more information.

Moderator: Moderators

Forum rules
  • For making cartridges of your Super NES games, see Reproduction.
User avatar
rainwarrior
Posts: 8735
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by rainwarrior »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri May 27, 2022 12:36 amI would be very interested in finding out how clear the difference is between normal-res and high-res (both pseudo high-res and actual high-res) when run through a decent connection like S-Video, Composite SCART, RGB SCART (particularly when compared to default Composite), also on modern TVs/monitors/displays too, in PAL vs NTSC, when viewed in 8:7 pixel perfect mode vs 4:3, and even on systems like the 3DS, Switch, SNES Mini and modern emulators, etc.
In the post I made just above this, there's a link to a direct comparison of Composite, S-Video, and RGB.

If you want a summary of how these 3 things generally compare:
  • 1. RGB output on a good TV is as clean as an emulator. (Unrelated to picture sharpness: unlike an emulator, the pixel aspect ratio is wider, and will have a stronger gamma brightness curve.)
  • 2. S-Video can be almost as good as RGB, but detailed colour changes can get muddled. (See my comment in that post.)
  • 3. Composite has conflicts (i.e. rainbow fringes) between brightness and colour anywhere there is detail. In hi-res the conflicts are twice as apparent.
So, RGB is perfectly clear. Composite has its problems. S-Video is pretty good, but hardly anyone uses it.

Some TVs of the time won't be as good with RGB or S-Video as they could be, though that's the TV's problem, not the console, or the signal type.

So the short of it is that mostly you can just guess how RGB will look based on emulation. Composite is the only one with significant compromise, and emulators do have a fairly accurate "NTSC filter" emulation you can try. (e.g. try bsnes)

Otherwise If you want some real CRT photos of several hires games under composite, I posted some higher up in the thread. Compare those photos to bsnes' NTSC filter and you might get an idea of emulator-vs-reality. Real TVs tend to be a little blurrier than the emulator filters.

Interlacing (vertical high-resolution): This is a bit of a separate issue. The way this looks cannot be demonstrated with a photograph, and how it looks on a CRT can't be demonstrated on an LCD monitor. Even a video is not going to give a very good idea.

PAL vs NTSC: it's often said that PAL is better than NTSC, but what this usually refers to is PAL having extra vertical resolution. For the SNES, the vertical resolution is not increased, so that comparison doesn't matter. With that out of the way, PAL composite has slightly different colour encoding than NTSC composite, so the specific look of the rainbow artifacts differs, but they're in the same quality ballpark as each other. (Also PAL SNES has an even wider pixel aspect ratio, of course.) I haven't yet found an easy to use PAL filter emulation, so it might be harder to demonstrate without the real hardware at hand.

The flicker effect of interlacing is worse on PAL.
creaothceann
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:47 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by creaothceann »

rainwarrior wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:09 pm PAL vs NTSC: it's often said that PAL is better than NTSC, but what this usually refers to is PAL having extra vertical resolution. For the SNES, the vertical resolution is not increased, so that comparison doesn't matter.
Until overscan is enabled.
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
bocchi
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon May 16, 2022 7:35 pm

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by bocchi »

rainwarrior wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:09 pm In the post I made just above this, there's a link to a direct comparison of Composite, S-Video, and RGB.
I suspect this is not from an actual SNES but rather a Wii emulator as the page says the GC version of the 240p suite was used. The transitions seem too sharp for a 3-chip at least.
User avatar
rainwarrior
Posts: 8735
Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:03 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by rainwarrior »

bocchi wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 4:42 pm
rainwarrior wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 3:09 pm In the post I made just above this, there's a link to a direct comparison of Composite, S-Video, and RGB.
I suspect this is not from an actual SNES but rather a Wii emulator as the page says the GC version of the 240p suite was used. The transitions seem too sharp for a 3-chip at least.
Checking the post source (the reddit link) it says it's an SNES mini with RGB output mod. Only the test suite is gamecube.

RetroRGB has a comparison page suggesting the SNES mini had cleaner RGB than earlier models. There are a bunch of pics there.

(Just in case it's confusing, "SNES mini" in this case refers to a late model SNES, and not the recent SNES Classic thing.)
bocchi
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon May 16, 2022 7:35 pm

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by bocchi »

rainwarrior wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 5:00 pm Checking the post source (the reddit link) it says it's an SNES mini with RGB output mod. Only the test suite is gamecube.

RetroRGB has a comparison page suggesting the SNES mini had cleaner RGB than earlier models. There are a bunch of pics there.

(Just in case it's confusing, "SNES mini" in this case refers to a late model SNES, and not the recent SNES Classic thing.)
Ah, it being a 1chip/mini checks out. Didn't know what the source of the pictures were so was just wildly guessing. At least my eyes didn't fail me in telling me that it was too sharp for a typical 3-chip SNES. I wonder how hi-res dither blend like in Kirby 3 looks like on these...
tepples
Posts: 22708
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by tepples »

The MUFASA firmware for SNES PowerPak runs in mode 5 (512x224). On my 1/1/1 console through S-Video to a Vizio TV, text is clear with sharp luma transitions.
User avatar
Nikku4211
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:28 pm
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by Nikku4211 »

SD2SNES/FXPak's firmware also runs in mode 5 512x224(for most of the screen), and I can read it mostly fine in composite on a Sharp-branded CRT, though Ws and Ms are hard to read.
IMG_20220902_212435.jpg
I have an ASD, so empathy is not natural for me. If I hurt you, I apologise.
creaothceann
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:47 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by creaothceann »

tepples wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:23 pm On my 1/1/1 console through S-Video to a Vizio TV, text is clear with sharp luma transitions.
Yeah, luma (brightness) shouldn't be a problem. The chroma (color) part of the signal is the one that has less bandwidth.

So the clearest in-game text boxes would be completely grayscale, for example white on black or black on gray.
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
Post Reply