Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

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Persune
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by Persune »

HS_DEC062022_CPU07_H7853459

Measured using Audacity's Contrast Analyzer.
Audio is selected on the falling edge of the waveform and when entire selection is centered to account for DC offsets.
Test is run 3 times consecutively to get an average dB delta on each recording.
I will run this test again tommorow to get more data to average out.
All dB measurements are RMS.

Code: Select all

APU1 against APU2 (HVC-CPU-07):
	-15.34dB against -15.52dB = -0.18dB delta
	-15.43dB against -15.60dB = -0.17dB delta
	-15.50dB against -15.65dB = -0.15dB delta
	average of -0.17dB (-17mB)

APU1 against VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara):
	-20.40dB against -21.49dB = -1.09dB delta
	-20.40dB against -21.49dB = -1.09dB delta
	-20.44dB against -21.49dB = -1.05dB delta
	average of -1.08dB (-108mB)

APU1 against VRC7A (Lagrange Point):
	-24.48dB against -13.61dB = 10.87dB delta
	-24.54dB against -13.62dB = 10.92dB delta
	-24.58dB against -13.63dB = 10.95dB delta
	average of 10.91dB (1091mB)

APU1 against FDS (HVC-FMR-02):
	-12.89dB against -6.17dB = 6.72dB delta
	-12.93dB against -6.16dB = 6.77dB delta
	-12.97dB against -6.16dB = 6.81dB delta
	average of 6.77dB (677mB)

APU1 against MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden):
	-19.58dB against -19.72dB = -0.14dB delta
	-19.64dB against -19.72dB = -0.08dB delta
	-19.68dB against -19.72dB = -0.04dB delta
	average of -0.09dB (9mB)

APU1 against N163 (Mappy Kids)
	-25.69dB against -6.85dB = 18.84dB delta
	-25.71dB against -6.85dB = 18.86dB delta
	-25.73dB against -6.85dB = 18.88dB delta
	average of 18.86dB (1886mB)

APU1 against N163 (King of Kings)
	-25.34dB against -7.35dB = 17.99dB delta
	-25.37dB against -7.35dB = 18.02dB delta
	-25.40dB against -7.35dB = 18.05dB delta
	average of 18.02dB (1802mB)
Results:
APU2 (HVC-CPU-07): -17
VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara): -108
VRC7A (Lagrange Point): 1091
FDS (HVC-FMR-02): 677
MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden): 9
N163 (Mappy Kids): 1886
N163 (King of Kings): 1802

Link to recordings
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rainwarrior
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by rainwarrior »

Thanks. That seems to confirm the current recommended default mix.
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Persune
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by Persune »

Here's some more survey entries, measuring all my Famicoms at this point in time.
Don't currently have a Gimmick! cart, but one could extrapolate what the resulting 5B mixing might be using an average of all the deltas in one console revision compared to another.

All recordings here use the same input gain.

All measurements done using Audacity's Contrast Analyzer.
Audio is selected on the falling edge of the waveform and when entire selection is centered to account for DC offsets.

Test is run for 3 minutes to stabilize analog audio levels, then the last 5 iterations are measured to get an average dB RMS delta on each recording.

Code: Select all

HS_DEC072022_HVCN-CPU-01_HN10563380

APU1 		APU2 (HVCN-CPU-01, RP2A03H-4AM-4J)
-20.42dB	-20.56dB	-0.14dB
-20.42dB	-20.56dB	-0.14dB
-20.43dB	-20.56dB	-0.13dB
-20.43dB	-20.56dB	-0.13dB
-20.43dB	-20.57dB	-0.14dB
		average:	-0.14dB

APU1 		VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara, VRC-VI-053330-C02-485)
-26.09dB	-20.02dB	6.07dB
-26.10dB	-20.02dB	6.08dB
-26.10dB	-20.02dB	6.08dB
-26.10dB	-20.02dB	6.08dB
-26.10dB	-20.02dB	6.08dB
		average:	6.08dB

APU1 		VRC7A (Lagrange Point, VRC-VII-053982-9046-IAND)
-30.05dB	-12.78dB	17.27dB
-30.05dB	-12.78dB	17.27dB
-30.05dB	-12.79dB	17.26dB
-30.05dB	-12.79dB	17.26dB
-30.05dB	-12.79dB	17.26dB
		average:	17.26dB

APU1 		FDS (HVC-FMR-02, RP2C33-01A-5L1-33)
-17.68dB	-5.60dB		12.08dB
-17.68dB	-5.60dB		12.08dB
-17.68dB	-5.60dB		12.08dB
-17.68dB	-5.60dB		12.08dB
-17.68dB	-5.60dB		12.08dB
		average:	12.08dB

APU1 		MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden, N-MMC5-8951AA050)
-24.62dB	-19.14dB	5.48dB
-24.62dB	-19.14dB	5.48dB
-24.62dB	-19.14dB	5.48dB
-24.62dB	-19.14dB	5.48dB
-24.62dB	-19.14dB	5.48dB
		average:	5.48dB

APU1 		N163 (Mappy Kids, JAPAN-163-8848-Z68)
-30.58dB	-6.23dB		24.35dB
-30.58dB	-6.23dB		24.35dB
-30.58dB	-6.23dB		24.35dB
-30.58dB	-6.23dB		24.35dB
-30.58dB	-6.23dB		24.35dB
		average:	24.35dB

APU1 		N163 (King of Kings, epoxy-ASIC)
-30.28dB	-6.73dB		23.55dB
-30.29dB	-6.73dB		23.56dB
-30.29dB	-6.73dB		23.56dB
-30.29dB	-6.73dB		23.56dB
-30.29dB	-6.73dB		23.56dB
		average:	23.56dB



HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-GPM-02_HC3913554

APU1 		APU2 (HVC-CPU-GPM-02, RP2A03G-1CP-21)
-21.41dB	-21.83dB	-0.42dB
-21.41dB	-21.84dB	-0.43dB
-21.41dB	-21.84dB	-0.43dB
-21.42dB	-21.85dB	-0.43dB
-21.42dB	-21.85dB	-0.43dB
		average:	-0.43dB

APU1 		VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara, VRC-VI-053330-C02-485)
-26.72dB	-21.13dB	5.59dB
-26.72dB	-21.13dB	5.59dB
-26.73dB	-21.13dB	5.60dB
-26.73dB	-21.13dB	5.60dB
-26.73dB	-21.13dB	5.60dB
		average:	5.60dB

APU1 		VRC7A (Lagrange Point, VRC-VII-053982-9046-IAND)
-30.90dB	-13.38dB	17.52dB
-30.90dB	-13.38dB	17.52dB
-30.91dB	-13.38dB	17.53dB
-30.91dB	-13.38dB	17.53dB
-30.91dB	-13.38dB	17.53dB
		average:	17.53dB

APU1 		FDS (HVC-FMR-02, RP2C33-01A-5L1-33)
-19.38dB	-5.88dB		13.50dB
-19.38dB	-5.88dB		13.50dB
-19.38dB	-5.88dB		13.50dB
-19.39dB	-5.88dB		13.51dB
-19.39dB	-5.88dB		13.51dB
		average:	13.50dB

APU1 		MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden, N-MMC5-8951AA050)
-25.94dB	-19.30dB	6.64dB
-25.93dB	-19.30dB	6.63dB
-25.93dB	-19.30dB	6.63dB
-25.94dB	-19.30dB	6.64dB
-25.94dB	-19.30dB	6.64dB
		average:	6.64dB

APU1 		N163 (Mappy Kids, JAPAN-163-8848-Z68)
-31.99dB	-6.52dB		25.47dB
-31.99dB	-6.53dB		25.46dB
-31.99dB	-6.53dB		25.46dB
-31.99dB	-6.53dB		25.46dB
-31.99dB	-6.53dB		25.46dB
		average:	25.46dB

APU1 		N163 (King of Kings, epoxy ASIC)
-31.67dB	-7.01dB		24.66dB
-31.66dB	-7.01dB		24.65dB
-31.66dB	-7.01dB		24.65dB
-31.66dB	-7.01dB		24.65dB
-31.66dB	-7.01dB		24.65dB
		average:	24.65dB



HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-07_H11111212

APU1 		APU2 (HVC-CPU-07, RP2A03E-6F3-42)
-15.85dB	-16.07dB	-0.22dB
-15.85dB	-16.07dB	-0.22dB
-15.85dB	-16.08dB	-0.23dB
-15.85dB	-16.08dB	-0.23dB
-15.86dB	-16.08dB	-0.22dB
		average:	-0.22dB

APU1 		VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara, VRC VI 053330 C02 485)
-20.86dB	-20.95dB	-0.09dB
-20.86dB	-20.95dB	-0.09dB
-20.86dB	-20.95dB	-0.09dB
-20.87dB	-20.95dB	-0.08dB
-20.87dB	-20.95dB	-0.08dB
		average:	-0.09dB

APU1 		VRC7A (Lagrange Point, VRC VII 053982 9046 IAND)
-24.86dB	-13.19dB	11.67dB
-24.87dB	-13.19dB	11.68dB
-24.87dB	-13.19dB	11.68dB
-24.87dB	-13.19dB	11.68dB
-24.88dB	-13.19dB	11.69dB
		average:	11.68dB

APU1 		FDS (HVC-FMR-02, RP2C33 01A 5L1 33)
-13.20dB	-5.70dB		7.50dB
-13.20dB	-5.70dB		7.50dB
-13.20dB	-5.70dB		7.50dB
-13.20dB	-5.70dB		7.50dB
-13.20dB	-5.70dB		7.50dB
		average:	7.50dB

APU1 		MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden, N MMC5 8951AA050)
-19.92dB	-19.18dB	0.74dB
-19.92dB	-19.18dB	0.74dB
-19.92dB	-19.18dB	0.74dB
-19.93dB	-19.18dB	0.75dB
-19.93dB	-19.18dB	0.75dB
		average:	0.74dB

APU1 		N163 (Mappy Kids, JAPAN 163 8848 Z68)
-25.90dB	-6.40dB		19.50dB
-25.90dB	-6.40dB		19.50dB
-25.90dB	-6.40dB		19.50dB
-25.90dB	-6.41dB		19.49dB
-25.90dB	-6.41dB		19.49dB
		average:	19.50dB

APU1 		N163 (King of Kings, epoxy ASIC)
-25.59dB	-6.88dB		18.71dB
-25.59dB	-6.88dB		18.71dB
-25.58dB	-6.88dB		18.70dB
-25.58dB	-6.88dB		18.70dB
-25.58dB	-6.88dB		18.70dB
		average:	18.70dB
Results:

HS_DEC072022_HVCN-CPU-01_HN10563380
- APU1 (HVCN-CPU-01, RP2A03H 4AM 4J): 0
- APU2 (HVCN-CPU-01, RP2A03H 4AM 4J): -14
- VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara): 608
- VRC7A (Lagrange Point): 1726
- FDS (HVC-FMR-02): 1208
- MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden): 548
- N163 (Mappy Kids): 2435
- N163 (King of Kings): 2356

HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-GPM-02_HC3913554
- APU1 (HVC-CPU-GPM-02, RP2A03G 1CP 21): 0
- APU2 (HVC-CPU-GPM-02, RP2A03G 1CP 21): -43
- VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara): 560
- VRC7A (Lagrange Point): 1753
- FDS (HVC-FMR-02): 1350
- MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden): 664
- N163 (Mappy Kids): 2546
- N163 (King of Kings): 2465

HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-07_H11111212
- APU1 (HVC-CPU-07, RP2A03E 6F3 42): 0
- APU2 (HVC-CPU-07, RP2A03E 6F3 42): -22
- VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara): -9
- VRC7A (Lagrange Point): 1168
- FDS (HVC-FMR-02): 750
- MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden): 74
- N163 (Mappy Kids): 1950
- N163 (King of Kings): 1870

HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-07_H7853459
- APU1 (HVC-CPU-07, RP2A03G 8E3 H4): 0
- APU2 (HVC-CPU-07, RP2A03G 8E3 H4): -14
- VRC6B (Mouryou Senki Madara): 20
- VRC7A (Lagrange Point): 1086
- FDS (HVC-FMR-02): 724
- MMC5 (Nobunaga no Yabou: Sengoku Gunyuuden): 43
- N163 (Mappy Kids): 1918
- N163 (King of Kings): 1846

Link to archive of recordings
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rainwarrior
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by rainwarrior »

So what are HS_DEC072022_HVCN-CPU-01_HN10563380 and HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-GPM-02_HC3913554 and why are they ~6db quieter? Twin Famicom?
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Persune
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by Persune »

HS_DEC072022_HVCN-CPU-01_HN10563380 is my AV Famicom,
while HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-GPM-02_HC3913554 is my GPM rev. RF Famicom.

HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-07_H11111212 and
HS_DEC072022_HVC-CPU-07_H7853459 are my HVC-CPU-07 rev. RF Famicoms, H7853459 being AV modded.

I record direct pin 46 to my audio interface using my Cart Jack.
oldschoolgamer
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Re: Audio levels survey, expansion audio etc.

Post by oldschoolgamer »

I just stumbled upon this now, and I've recently been surveying the levels of 2A03 / 2A07. I compose chiptune, I often use FamiStudio, and I realised my NES (PAL console) seems to have way louder squares than the application.

The results here seem pretty similar to what I was getting, even the comparison to square and triangle. I find it very hard to measure TND though because it tends to vary a lot once the DAC volume gets involved.

My method of measurement for squares, was to just measure the contrast in the steps relatively from 15 down to 1, starting with 0.00dB on 15 since that's my reference point. These are the averages I got, including measurements from 9 Famicom consoles, 2 NTSC NES consoles, and 2 PAL NES consoles:

Code: Select all

Vol |  Amp
*************
 15 |  0.00dB
 14 | -0.51dB
 13 | -1.06dB
 12 | -1.67dB
 11 | -2.34dB
 10 | -3.07dB
  9 | -3.90dB
  8 | -4.81dB
  7 | -5.91dB
  6 | -7.14dB
  5 | -8.61dB
  4 | -10.40dB
  3 | -12.91dB
  2 | -16.22dB
  1 | -21.94dB
Notably, the higher values were all nearly identical on most consoles, but the lower values are what started to vary a lot. Probably due to several factors, including recording equipment etc.

The math from the wiki "95.88 / (8128.0 / n + 100)" gives out values that more or less represent these values above. I'd took basic math that involves logarithm and used that in conjunction with the above to write a simple Python script to calculate what values I would get in decibels with a corresponding pitch table, and these are the values the code spits out:

Code: Select all

Vol |  Amp
*************
 15 |  0.00dB
 14 | -0.51dB
 13 | -1.06dB
 12 | -1.66dB
 11 | -2.33dB
 10 | -3.07dB
  9 | -3.88dB
  8 | -4.80dB
  7 | -5.87dB
  6 | -7.11dB
  5 | -8.59dB
  4 | -10.43dB
  3 | -12.82dB
  2 | -16.24dB
  1 | -22.16dB
Pretty close to the measurements I took from people's recordings. Also to note, the Triangle was on average 0.29dB louder than square on 9 Famicom systems, an NTSC NES, and a PAL NES (with the DAC set to 0 of course).
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