Any Good Shadowgate Arrangements?

Discuss NSF files, FamiTracker, MML tools, or anything else related to NES music.

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Jedi QuestMaster
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Post by Jedi QuestMaster »

Here's another one!

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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

Tepples are you interested too in a composeer ripping himself unintentionally ? I have a few example of Uematsu's who recycled his old songs unintentionally :
Final Fantasy V - Intension of the Earth (from 0:24)
Final Fantasy IX - Kuja's Theme

Final Fantasy IV - Wolrd Map
Final Fantasy X - Riding Shoopuf

Final Fantasy VIII - The castle at 2:12
Final Fantasy X - Brave Advancement

Of course those might have been intentional, but they're probably not.
I think I have about half-a-dozen more in mind, all with Uemastu, so if you are interested just ask.

EDIT : About the so-called similarity between Robo's theme and Never Gonna give you up, I disagree.

I listened both songs very carefully, I really love both of them but I can say that they aren't similar. It's just a coincidence that playing both at the same time isn't too horrible (what happens if you play two random songs together).

1) The melody is completely different
2) The rythm of Never Gonna Give You up is a simple "kick, snare, kick, snare" rythm while the rythm of Robo's theme is more complicated
3) The bassline of Robo's theme is a simple "daa--da-da-daa---da-da-daa....." pattern while the bassline of Never Gonna Give you Up is much more complex
4) In the end only the chords match more or less, but even then, you notice they aren't completely matching, they don't always change at the same time.

The reason the songs went well along is because the chord sequence is somewhat similar. Also they editied Robo's them when making it up, if you played the untouched original it would probably not work as well.

So I disagree both songs are similar. Considering the incredible amount of songs ever composed by the humanity, there is a extremely high probability that a song will have the same chord sequence as another as another on a part of it, and then your list could last forever.
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tepples
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Post by tepples »

Bregalad wrote:Tepples are you interested too in a composeer ripping himself unintentionally ? I have a few example of Uematsu's who recycled his old songs unintentionally :
Final Fantasy V - Intension of the Earth (from 0:24)
Final Fantasy IX - Kuja's Theme

Final Fantasy IV - Wolrd Map
Final Fantasy X - Riding Shoopuf

Final Fantasy VIII - The castle at 2:12
Final Fantasy X - Brave Advancement

Of course those might have been intentional, but they're probably not.
I think I have about half-a-dozen more in mind, all with Uemastu, so if you are interested just ask.
Go ahead and start a user-space draft of a page about Mr. Uematsu's alleged self-plagiarism.
EDIT : About the so-called similarity between Robo's theme and Never Gonna give you up, I disagree.

I listened both songs very carefully, I really love both of them but I can say that they aren't similar. It's just a coincidence that playing both at the same time isn't too horrible (what happens if you play two random songs together).

1) The melody is completely different
I agree that the "verse" isn't as strong of an example, but the comparison is between the "chorus" of Robo's theme and instrumental part behind the chorus of NGGYU. Copying a substantial part of a song is still infringement.
2) The rythm of Never Gonna Give You up is a simple "kick, snare, kick, snare" rythm while the rythm of Robo's theme is more complicated
3) The bassline of Robo's theme is a simple "daa--da-da-daa---da-da-daa....." pattern while the bassline of Never Gonna Give you Up is much more complex
In all the case law I've read, judges have weighed melodic similarities more than drum and bass similarities.
4) In the end only the chords match more or less, but even then, you notice they aren't completely matching, they don't always change at the same time.
In the melody of the chorus they do.
Also they editied Robo's them when making it up, if you played the untouched original it would probably not work as well.
When determining similarity, a judge will ignore what key a song is in and how fast it is played. If a whole song needs to be transposed, that's valid. Otherwise, George Harrison wouldn't have got in trouble for "My Sweet Lord", which needs to be played faster and (in the first half) transposed up to match "He's So Fine".
So I disagree both songs are similar. Considering the incredible amount of songs ever composed by the humanity, there is a extremely high probability that a song will have the same
Exactly my point. The moral of the project is that the case law for copyright in musical works is unworkable in the long term, and the only thing keeping the music industry from suing itself out of existence is a gentleman's agreement among the major labels to overlook minor similarities. An independent musician, on the other hand, can't claim the benefit of this agreement. Compare the Cold War-era state of mutual assured destruction, and see also a short story by Spider Robinson.
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

OK so to proof that Robo's theme is not similar with NGGYU, I took the time to analyse MIDIs from both songs and compare their sequences chords for the chorus (I didn't do it for the verses because they are obviously very different and don't blend together well at all).

The chord sequence for NGGYU is :
Gb7, Ab, Ab, Bbm
Gb7, Ab, Ab, Bbm
Gb7, Ab, Ab, Bbm
Gb7, Ab, Ab, Bbm

The chord sequence for Robo is :
G, A, A, Bm7
G, A, A, D
G, A, A, Bm7
G, A, A, B

First constat is that NGGYU is a semitone lower, so they had to transpose either song to blend them together. Here for the example I'll transpose NGGYU one semitone higher, which gives :
G7, A, A, Bm

Which is similar to Robo's chord sequence for lines 1 and 3, just that the 7th is placed at the first chord instead at the last BUT you'll note that the last chord is different for lines 2 and 3.

Also the melody is very different, there is no way you could call it similar. And please stop talking about lawyers and juges when there is no ROM download implied (it's not like if Rick Astley is going to sue Square).
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tepples
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Post by tepples »

Bregalad wrote:Also the melody is very different, there is no way you could call it similar.
Time for a split track with just the melodies that I'm comparing. Here's the audio, and here's the screenshot from the tracker in which I composed the audio:

Code: Select all

|C#6 01 ...|C#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|C#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|D#6 01 ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|G#5 01 ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|D#6 01 ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|F-6 01 ...|F-6 01 ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|F-6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|G#6 01 ...|D#6 01 ...
|F#6 01 ...|... .. ...
|F-6 01 ...|... .. ...
|C#6 01 ...|^^^ .. ...
|C#6 01 ...|C#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|C#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|D#6 01 ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|D#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|G#5 01 ...|C#6 01 ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|C-6 01 ...
|... .. ...|G#5 01 ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|... .. ...|^^^ .. ...
|... .. ...|... .. ...
|G#4 01 ...|... .. ...
|G#4 01 ...|... .. ...
|A#4 01 ...|... .. ...
|C#5 01 ...|... .. ...
|^^^ .. ...|... .. ...
|C#5 01 ...|... .. ...
Except for the timing of the excursions to G#, the overall similarity of this combined with the kinda-sorta similarity of the bass line establishes the connection in the listener's mind.
And please stop talking about lawyers and juges when there is no ROM download implied (it's not like if Rick Astley is going to sue Square).
It's been suggested that the reason Earthbound isn't on Virtual Console and Mother 3 isn't released outside Japan has a lot to do with the Beatles.
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

I can't listen to the .ogg currently as I'm at work but I will when I'll go back to home.
It's been suggested that the reason Earthbound isn't on Virtual Console and Mother 3 isn't released outside Japan has a lot to do with the Beatles.
This might be possible, but I think the reason is that this game is highly securised and hard to emulate, and that Nintendo didn't find a way arround this (which is probably also why Battletoads, for example, isn't released for the VC).
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Jeroen
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Post by Jeroen »

Bregalad wrote:I can't listen to the .ogg currently as I'm at work but I will when I'll go back to home.
It's been suggested that the reason Earthbound isn't on Virtual Console and Mother 3 isn't released outside Japan has a lot to do with the Beatles.
This might be possible, but I think the reason is that this game is highly securised and hard to emulate, and that Nintendo didn't find a way arround this (which is probably also why Battletoads, for example, isn't released for the VC).
No offense but you're not telling me that Nintendo's emulator authors who work on this stuff ALL day can't emulate something a hobbyist can get working in hsi spare time? Hell they can hack the rom since they don't care about authenticity!
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

Tepples I listened to your .ogg and this isn't the melody. The melody is what Rick Astley is singing, the rest is part of chords.

As I already said the chords DOES match well for the most parts, but it's the ONLY thing that matches. The bassline is quite different, increase the bass of your amplifier if you can't hear it. Robo's bass is a simple rythm following the chords while NGGYU's bass is quite complex.
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