INL HiLoROM SNES flash cart

[jbradfield]

Are you talking about the firmware (the part that you update on the Kazzo) or the host app (the part that runs on the PC) when you're testing with both? The firmware won't fix crash issues, as the writes are handled the same for the most part. The host app may make some difference.

Both. I tried the INL host app/firmware beta 1.1 and your host app/firmware release 10. They produced identical results (FF6 crashes in the same place).

Which release of my host app are you using? What are you using to apply the patch that you mentioned? It shouldn't be a HiROM mapping issue, in theory, since it's a 4MByte Rom on a 4MByte cart, but do make sure you flipped the top switch to HiROM position.

Release 10, as mentioned. I tried both a version pre-patched with SNES ROM Util, and patching the original ROM with the host app. The switch is set to HiROM (attempting to boot in LoROM just results in a black screen).

I'm at work right now so I can't do too much testing for you, but if you provide that info, I'll do some checking when I get home (around 5:45pm MST) and get back with you on my results. A common issue seems to be cart centering - see the info in my host app thread for proper positioning (in the Quick Usage section) when inserting it into the Kazzo, since the socket and cart aren't perfect matches.

I think I've been fairly careful with cart alignment while flashing (I noticed the alignment mismatch the second time I socketed the cart into the kazzo). If the cart was misaligned, I think the result would be more obvious corruption instead of "runs perfectly until the moment it crashes", but I dunno.

The main issue I have with getting you an answer right away is that I have not received a 4MByte board to test HiROM with, hopefully that will happen soon. Try to test several Roms that're LoROM and several that are HiROM, and let me know if the HiROM ones all fail, or which ones work and which fail (and what size they are, specificaly Rom Size as listed in the host app) and I'll see what I can figure out on my end. Also, if a Rom fails, try without "Auto-Fix Protection" and see if that changes things...it's fairly safe, but there's a tiny chance that could cause issues.

I'll find a list and see what results I get.

[Danin]

(snip) I'll find a list and see what results I get.

Thank you for your thorough reply. I appreciate that very much. I'll check into it tonight for sure, and I'll let you know what my results are compared to your own, however the only cart I have is the 12MByte so my results may be different.

[satashi26]

I'm having the same issue actually, as the ones I was working on was final Fantasy VI, and Final Fantasy V. Part IV worked perfectly, but it's a LoROM game. The game glitches during the opening text in VI and same with V, although V lasts about 2 minutes longer before it crashes.

I've done Super Metroid on the 1.1 beta firmware and software, and it's a HiROM. Although I tried V and VI on the same setup and it didn't work so I upgraded to the newest version 10 and running the update with it .So I don't think it's ALL HiROM games...

@jbradfield: Looks like we're doing the same games. If I figure out a solution before you, I'll be sure to post here to let you know!
EDIT3: It was my SNES. The carts work fine in another one.

[Danin]

My final reply before I get home to actually do testing and checking: The firmware shipped with Release 10 will run perfectly with all previous releases. Downgrading firmware to A) Fix bugs, or B) use the old host app versions/original version/etc should never be required. I appreciate that you guys are thorough enough to test all of these scenarios, but I wanted to let you know that it isn't directly required to move between versions. New features are added in parallel with old features, and behavior is proven to be completely unchanged when using older/original software. That was a design goal I set for myself, actually - I didn't want people to have to mess with their firmware more often than necessary. ;)

Interesting that you two are having parallel problems...I wonder what's up there. I'll definitely look into it tonight.

[jbradfield]

I'm having the same issue actually, as the ones I was working on was final Fantasy VI, and Final Fantasy V. Part IV worked perfectly, but it's a LoROM game. The game glitches during the opening text in VI and same with V, although V lasts about 2 minutes longer before it crashes.

I've done Super Metroid on the 1.1 beta firmware and software, and it's a HiROM. Although I tried V and VI on the same setup and it didn't work so I upgraded to the newest version 10 and running the update with it .So I don't think it's ALL HiROM games...

@jbradfield: Looks like we're doing the same games. If I figure out a solution before you, I'll be sure to post here to let you know!

Super Metroid is a LoROM game, despite what you might intuit from its size.

I've tested the following games and logged the results. Games that didn't crash in the first 5-10 minutes of use are labeled as "works (apparently)" since a thorough test of stability is impractical.

Code: Select all

Game                            Region  Actual Size  ROM Size  Hi/Lo  Speed    Status
----                            ----    ----         ----      ----   ----     ----
Final Fantasy VI (patched FF3)  NA      4096 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH on scene transition during prologue
Final Fantasy III               NA      3072 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH on scene transition during prologue
Chrono Trigger                  NA      4096 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH during attract mode
Super Mario World               NA      512 KB       512 KB    LoROM  SlowROM  Works (apparently)
Tactics Ogre                    JP      3072 KB      4096 KB   LoROM  FastROM  Works (apparently)
Breath of Fire 2                NA      3072 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  Works (apparently)
Super Metroid                   NA      3072 KB      4096 KB   LoROM  FastROM  Graphical corruption in background of Crateria (http://i.imgur.com/yHpsMYD.jpg)
Final Fantasy V                 JP      2048 KB      2048 KB   HiROM  SlowROM  CRASH shortly after scene transition during prologue

There appears to be a recurring issue with Squaresoft HiROM games. Further test cases (FF4 and Secret of Mana come to mind) are probably warranted. The Super Metroid result is particularly interesting; I'm not sure if its indicative of a poor flash or a potential hardware fault in the board.

[satashi26]

I've checked Final Fantasy IV and it works fine. I'll try and get on Secret of Mana and Secret of Evermore later tonight/tomorrow. Also my Super Metroid worked, so you may want to try re-doing that one? ( and yeah it's LoROM my bad!)

[Danin]

Sorry this took so long, had a pet-related emergency to attend to, and now I'm just so worn out that I'm honestly not up to putting much effort into this, BUT I said I would, so here I am. First off. Thank you for the nice table and information and so forth, it really makes the lives of those trying to help much easier. I won't be taking the time to reciprocate on the nice fancy table right now, I just don't have the energy. I've done two tests, and that's as far as I'm getting tonight because I'm just exhausted after that whole ordeal.

Final Fantasy 3 (CRC32: C0FA0464) plays perfectly all the way through waking up and running from the dudes after having the crown removed or whatever. I wasn't paying attention, but it took like 15 minutes of half-attentive play to get there...

Chronotrigger (CRC32: 2D206BF7) has looped through its attract mode scenes probably ten times while I've been eating dinner/etc..

Both CRC32s are from my host app immediately after loading, on the Original buffer tab. (Suddenly I kind of want to add copy-to-clipboard support for those...)

I suspect one of two things. Bad ROMs (even if they play in emulators, because they use a lot of workarounds and silent fixes for bugs and bad dumps and such) OR something messed up with my HiROM mapping for the 4MByte carts (I'm using a 12MByte cart) or maybe SlowROM protection that's getting triggered by a slightly laggy flash chip maybe? I don't know. 4MByte HiROM shouldn't exactly be difficult, it's mirrored to where you should just have to write the file. If it's not an issue with the quality of the ROM file, I have no other idea for tonight. I'll look into it further tomorrow, but I have a feeling that anything more than a preliminary sniffing around is going to require me having access to a 4MByte cart.

[jbradfield]

I'll go back through the list and add CRCs tomorrow. I'm sure the FF3us ROM is canonical, at least (checked the CRC32 and MD5 before I patched it).

Edit: actually I guess I'll just do that now. Probably not going to get a chance tomorrow to test any additional games.

Notable: you're testing FF3us v1.1, I'm testing FF3us v1.0, hence the CRC32 mismatch. Both are canonical.

Code: Select all

Game                            Region  CRC32     Actual Size  ROM Size  Hi/Lo  Speed    Status
----                            ----    ----      ----         ----      ----   ----     ----
Final Fantasy VI (patched FF3)  NA      99D2799B  4096 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH on scene transition during prologue
Final Fantasy III               NA      A27F1C7A  3072 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH on scene transition during prologue
Chrono Trigger                  NA      2D206BF7  4096 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  CRASH during attract mode
Super Mario World               NA      B19ED489  512 KB       512 KB    LoROM  SlowROM  Works (apparently)
Tactics Ogre                    JP      DAF285A5  3072 KB      4096 KB   LoROM  FastROM  Works (apparently)
Breath of Fire 2                NA      67CDACC5  3072 KB      4096 KB   HiROM  FastROM  Works (apparently)
Super Metroid                   NA      806D0D0B  3072 KB      4096 KB   LoROM  FastROM  Graphical corruption in background of Crateria (http://i.imgur.com/yHpsMYD.jpg)
Final Fantasy V                 JP      A8E7DFFA  2048 KB      2048 KB   HiROM  SlowROM  CRASH shortly after scene transition during prologue

Hope there's not any transcription errors in there.

Double-edit: my ROMs are all headered (CRC32s are pulled from the HeaderStrip tab of the host app). I assume since the ROMs all actually boot on the SNES that header stripping is an automated part of the process, right? That shouldn't break anything.

[Danin]

Header stip is indeed an automated process, and 100% required for any Rom to work on the SNES with any hardware. The header is 512 bytes of information that's not needed, and was added by cart dumpers, and only adds confusion when applying patch files because sometimes they're patched as headered, sometimes headerless, etc etc. Thanks for specifying where the CRCs (etc) are coming from, and for what it's worth, copy to clipboard will be in my next release. Here's something interesting, though;

I've tested it thoroughly with my 12MByte cart. Everything I've tried has worked fine. I have someone helping me beta and debug, and we're seeing breakage. I've confirmed that her cart is receiving the same data as mine (just 4MByte instead of the full 12MByte HiROM/mirroring stuff) and given that it's a 4MByte ROM on a 4MByte cart, it should be working. I've checked SRAM protection routines, region protection routines, I even added (and patched) SlowROM protection - I was sure that last one would fix it, since it found instances of SlowROM protection. Nothing we've done is working.

Since it works on a 12MByte cart (and I only have a 12MByte cart) I can't do any further testing. The only conclusion I can come to is that it's a bug in the CPLD someplace that only comes into play with the few ROMs you guys have mentioned issues with. I unfortunately will not be able to help with resolving these issues until one of two things happens, the timeframe of both of which are out of my control.

TL:DR - Seems to be a cart issue, works on 12MByte carts, not 4MByte carts. Can anyone with an 8MByte cart chime in? (I apologize if someone here HAS an 8MByte cart and has already weighed in, I've been under serious stress since Monday, so I may've missed/forgotten something...)

[jbradfield]

That's somewhat ironic, considering I got the 4MB cart on the expectation that I'd only be putting FF6 on it and thought a cart of the correct size would be less likely to cause problems. I guess I'll have to see about getting a different cart. If you can suggest any further testing in the meantime I'd be happy to fiddle with it.

[Danin]

This is all very uncomfirmed, so don't go spending money just yet unless you don't want to wait for better confirmation. This is initial speculation, nothing more. Also, while I am the Host App guy, I am NOT the hardware guy and have no direct affiliation with INL - my statements are not to be considered 'official' on anything except the host app. Please don't go flocking to him claiming my suggestions here as fact. I'll be receiving a 4MByte cart soon, and I'll do what further testing I can at that time. Furthermore, if the bug IS cart-side, I suspect there will be a fix made available. INL's design leaves room for fixes, as far as I can see. The problem is, you'll either need to be capable of programming a CPLD, or you will have to send it to someone who can.

IF we discover that it is a cart-side bug, I'll offer free programming service to those needing it, requiring only that you pay shipping to me and back.

[MottZilla]

Final Fantasy 6 should work fine on your 4megabyte/32mbit cartridge.

SlowROM is not protection. You should never apply SlowROM fixes today. The SlowROM fixes are related to very old copiers that presumably did not support FastROM access. By enabling FastROM these games would crash on Copiers that can't support FastROM timing. If you apply a SlowROM fix you will only introduce problems, not solve any. The INL carts certainly do support FastROM access timing.

I don't have time tonight to test FF6 on my own 4 megabyte cartridge, but I have tested similar games such as Terranigma which ran with no problems. It's the same setup except it has 1 megabyte of additional ROM storage.

Your problem doesn't sound like a problem with the INL cartridges as a group. Are you using an original SNES power supply or a third party supply? Are you using an original Nintendo manufactured system or a clone? Do any of the games that you have problems playing do you have an original cartridge of to try? Have you cleaned your system connector and ruled out a bad connection? Have you tried using the cartridge on another console?

When you say crash, does the screen go blank and the sound stop? If it does, I've had that problem too and solved it.

[Danin]

Final Fantasy 6 should work fine on your 4megabyte/32mbit cartridge.

Yes, that's exactly the basis of assessment I've used to raise the suspicion of the 4MByte cartridges being at fault. It's not working. It should work. Thus, there's a problem.

SlowROM is not protection. You should never apply SlowROM fixes today. The SlowROM fixes are related to very old copiers that presumably did not support FastROM access. By enabling FastROM these games would crash on Copiers that can't support FastROM timing. If you apply a SlowROM fix you will only introduce problems, not solve any. The INL carts certainly do support FastROM access timing.

I am well aware of the nature of SlowROM and that these carts support FastROM. I was trying to test the validity of the assumption that the carts -should- work with games that require FastROM, and see if maybe there was a timing-related issue with 4MByte cartridges that did not exist with 12MByte cartridges. I improperly stated it as SlowROM Protection, when what I was applying were in fact SlowROM "fixes" as prescribed by UCON64. Clearly some issue is possible using these fixes, which is why they aren't in the released versions of my app, I merely tried that to see if it improved or at all changed the behavior of the issues - it did not, and as such I've eliminated it (as I said) from suspicion.

I don't have time tonight to test FF6 on my own 4 megabyte cartridge, but I have tested similar games such as Terranigma which ran with no problems. It's the same setup except it has 1 megabyte of additional ROM storage.

I haven't heard one report of FF6 working on the 4MByte INL carts, which is the basis of this whole conversation - I'd be thrilled to hear back on your success with this though, IF it's an INL cart. I suspect the problem is with the INL cart specifically, as I've stated, so unless it's an INL 4MByte cart, I fully expect you'll report that it works.

Your problem doesn't sound like a problem with the INL cartridges as a group. Are you using an original SNES power supply or a third party supply? Are you using an original Nintendo manufactured system or a clone? Do any of the games that you have problems playing do you have an original cartridge of to try? Have you cleaned your system connector and ruled out a bad connection? Have you tried using the cartridge on another console?

It sounds exactly like a problem with the 4MByte INL cartridge as a group, as I have not heard a single report of success with specifically the 4MByte INL cart running specifically FF6. The carts play most games fine, but several (as listed on a previous post by a very thorough member) don't work on the 4MByte cart, and do work on the 12MByte cart as verified by myself and at least one other member.

When you say crash, does the screen go blank and the sound stop? If it does, I've had that problem too and solved it.

I haven't personally had the problem (yes I know you're not talking directly to me) thus my attempts to collate data, and I'm seeing a very specific pattern of games that don't work on INL 4MByte carts. What I find odd is the reports that they do work on 12MByte carts, and fail on 4MByte carts. As we've both stated, it -should- work, but it does not, thus identifying the definition of 'a problem' and not 'no problem'. I've received reports from no less than four individuals - one of whom has five INL 4MByte carts on her desk - who cannot get the ROMs listed previously to work on their cart(s), and counting myself, two others who CAN get them to work on 12MByte carts. Not to be considered 'statistically significant' so far as sample group sizing, but it's enough of a pattern with enough valid tests from experienced and intelligent users for me to determine that there's an issue that's not as simple as one might assume.

And like always, I'm going off of what I've seen. If I'm wrong about any of my statements, I'll readily admit it, but given the information I've collected from various reports in this thread and in PMs inspired BY this thread, it's a bit much to assume that they've all got bad power supplies that cause the SNES to have various errors on specific games with specific carts, or similar causes.

[jbradfield]

Your problem doesn't sound like a problem with the INL cartridges as a group. Are you using an original SNES power supply or a third party supply? Are you using an original Nintendo manufactured system or a clone? Do any of the games that you have problems playing do you have an original cartridge of to try? Have you cleaned your system connector and ruled out a bad connection? Have you tried using the cartridge on another console?

In addition to everything Danin said:

1) I'm running on all original hardware. I've used it to run something like a dozen commercial SNES carts and it works perfectly fine.

2) I own an original Chrono Trigger cart, and it runs without issue while the same game on the INL 4MB crashes very quickly. The Chrono Trigger ROM used in testing is canonical; the issue is almost certainly with the INL cart, and not with the console or the ROM.

[MottZilla]

I haven't had time to test yet, but have you been able to run Terranigma on your 32mbit cartridge? I know I have. I'll try to load up FF6/FF3 tonight and test it.

Update: Final Fantasy III works just fine on my 4 megabyte cartridge. My statement earlier that it's not a problem with the INL cartridges means I don't think it's a problem with the design, it might be a problem with the particular cartridge or something like that. Because obviously other people (such as myself) have had plenty of success with them.