Have people changed their minds about Satoru Iwata now?

[Khaz]

Maybe I'm old and can't get over the fact that my "Golden Age" was yesteryear and is never coming back.

Just like run and guns and shoot em ups...

As long as that love lives inside you, they are never dead. Build the future you want to see! YOU HAVE THE POWER.

Probably the most inspirational speech I'll ever give, make the most of it

[Shonumi]

As long as that love lives inside you, they are never dead. Build the future you want to see! YOU HAVE THE POWER.

You're right. I can change the future. This is the power of the Monado! (lol, Shulk quotes).

Anyway, I am somewhat hopeful. The next Xenoblade game comes out. Trying to stay on-topic, I looked at "Iwata Asks" where he talked to their dev-team, and the whole interview got me giddy for this game. I mean, I'll have to buy a Wii U, just to play that one game now. I read it after Iwata passed away, but I'd still like to imagine he at least made one more Wii U customer in me.

[Bregalad]

there's a cultural taboo against speaking ill of the dead with the exception of violent criminals.

Yup... I think that mindset is stupid, and I guess I can come off looking like a jerk, but I think people need to get real with themselves.

I agree with you fully. I remember back when Steeve Jobs died, even his most fellow opponents were suddently talking about him like he was a genius. I was like, NO, he was a complete asshole during his whole life, treated his coworkers and employees like shit, he didn't even know how to program and never invented anything he just yelled to people during his whole career, so why are you suddently talking about him like a genius just because he died? Aaargh I can't stand this mindset. If someone was bad, then he was bad, no matter if he died or not in the meanwhile.

As for Iwata, I had no idea he even existed before a thread was made about his death so I really cannot judge or anything. At least I won't pretend to be sad because someone I didn't know and had no idea he existed died, since this event happens a million of times everyday across the globe.

For now, let people get emotional. Death is hard to think about. People want to believe that, when they die, they too will be forgiven for their indiscretions and remembered fondly. Given that death is basically the worst thing in the universe that can occur to any living thing, I can sympathize with that view. After all. I'm (almost) precisely half the age he was when he died. I've spent a lot of time in the last few days agonizing about how my life is halfway over. It's a horrifying thought.

I do not want to enter into a thick debate, but your point of view is totally atheist. People who believe in a religion do not see death as horrifying at all. It is a natural thing and the only thing we can be certain is that we will die someday. Also I can guarantee I have seen and heard about illness that are much worse than death, however the trend today is to maintain people alive as long as possible, no matter in what state, because the mainstream way of thinking is atheist and they see death as "horrifying".

[Drew Sebastino]

I agree with you fully. I remember back when Steeve Jobs died, even his most fellow opponents were suddently talking about him like he was a genius. I was like, NO

I'm not even going to lie, but that made me crazy. People always acted like he was a jerk before that, and it seemed like he was. They even made a goddamn movie about him after he died. (And I heard it wasn't very good, but I'm not sure what people where expecting.)

he didn't even know how to program

I guess it was mostly just Steve Wozniak who did all the work? He doesn't seem that bad, but I don't really know too much about him.

I read it after Iwata passed away, but I'd still like to imagine he at least made one more Wii U customer in me.

Well, I don't think he made Splatoon, but now there's also one more Wii U customer.

As long as that love lives inside you, they are never dead. Build the future you want to see! YOU HAVE THE POWER.

Well, I do want to make a run and gun and then possibly a shoot em up.

[Shonumi]

@Bregalad - A large amount of Americans believe in an afterlife of some sort (by a large margin if I recall correctly, something like 80% or in that range). Generally, however, we're still horrified by death. There are other factors to it than just believing in what happens to you. Fear of the suddenness of death, fear of the method of death, and perhaps the biggest one is fear of, well, not being around anymore. A lot of people want to keep on doing what they do, so naturally death inhibits that, and naturally it is feared, even if you believe in the great beyond. So in short, I don't think fear of death is purely an atheistic mentality, nor is not fearing death specific to believing in a religion or an afterlife. People can find it horrifying regardless of their beliefs (at least over here in the States).

[Sik]

I agree with you fully. I remember back when Steeve Jobs died, even his most fellow opponents were suddently talking about him like he was a genius.

On the other hand, people who worked with him suddenly were quite happy about trashing the guy =P (at least that I remember) This doesn't seem to be going on with Iwata.

As for Iwata, I had no idea he even existed before a thread was made about his death so I really cannot judge or anything.

Even to those who weren't keeping up with Nintendo Direct and Iwata Asks, there's the fact that he had important roles on some of their most important franchises, so I would imagine that people being told such a guy had died probably weren't going to take it small.

I guess it was mostly just Steve Wozniak who did all the work?

Yep, he would just trick Wozniak into doing all the work for him >.>; (I know this was going on as early as Breakout, where Steve Jobs told to Atari that he was making it when really it was Wozniak building the whole thing)

[Khaz]

Aaargh I can't stand this mindset. If someone was bad, then he was bad, no matter if he died or not in the meanwhile.

I hate Steve Jobs. He was a greedy asshole that was only concerned with business and profit, who single-handedly set in motion the downfall of the modern computer age. That still doesn't make him "evil". He was a human, a very flawed one, and he no doubt did some positive things with his life too even if they don't outweigh the bad. He should be remembered as a man, not a saint and not a villain. If you had lived his exact life odds are good you would have made his exact choices too. Dehumanizing that just keeps us from learning from his mistakes, because you inherently assume anyone "good" would never make them.

I do not want to enter into a thick debate, but your point of view is totally atheist. People who believe in a religion do not see death as horrifying at all. It is a natural thing and the only thing we can be certain is that we will die someday. Also I can guarantee I have seen and heard about illness that are much worse than death, however the trend today is to maintain people alive as long as possible, no matter in what state, because the mainstream way of thinking is atheist and they see death as "horrifying".

I don't want to enter into a thick debate either, but you're damn right my point of view is atheist. You can believe whatever you want but humanity has collectively spent the last 2000 years enforcing religion on everyone, usually under penalty of death. Maybe if people had spent their time focused instead on observable reality and developing belief systems that don't require blind faith, we might have philosophies and answers by now that would allow people like me to not feel so miserable about the nature of life. But we didn't. So I do feel miserable.

Death IS horrifying. Terrible pain may make people beg for it but it's not death they want, it's relief. Sometimes we can't give them relief. I'm not going to discuss mercy-killing because it is too difficult and painful a subject, but it is a decision that MUST be made for atheist reasons. If you believe in heaven then why not go slaughter everyone that's currently unhappy? They'll be happier when they're dead, right?

Belief that there is anything that comes after death is too often treated as a free license to send people there prematurely. Belief in a higher power is too often an excuse to absolve oneself of all responsibility.

[tepples]

Espozo compared Splatoon to some desaturated FPS. True, Splatoon is more colorful than, say, the "artistic" first-person ink shooter The Unfinished Swan. But how does Splatoon compare to Fat Princess?

[Bregalad]

If you had lived his exact life odds are good you would have made his exact choices too. Dehumanizing that just keeps us from learning from his mistakes, because you inherently assume anyone "good" would never make them.

That's where you are wrong You seem to assume, like I believe too many people down there assume, that people are just a "blank table" that fill themselves as their lives and experiences goes on. In other words, every babies would be "identical", and only their environment would change them as they grow up. But this is wrong: We are born as different people and have different genetics making our body and our brain. A huge part of how we act on everyday live is written in our genes, and only a smaller part is actually determined by previous lived experience. Thus, even if anyone else was born instead of Steve Jobs, that person would have made different "decisions". (and the worst of that, is that all we decide is a combination of our genes and lived experience, so none comes really from "our will", yeah that's a crazy debate I had to read entire books about it in high school).

All that to say, that yes it is correct to blame him, because he was responsible of what he did, in my point of view. I believe this philosophy is absolutely compatible with both a believer and atheist point of view.

I have absolutely no problem with other people being atheist, as long as you do it consistently. It's the toughest "religion", since you believe that there is nothing after death, so death means that you're actually disappearing. For believers, death is a jump in the unknown, so it is an entirely different thing. No matter what you believe it is absolutely 100% certain you and everyone else will someday experience death, so you'd better be prepared for it.

I also believe maybe some people find death horrifying because they're not accounted to it. Back then people were born in poor families of 10 kids and someone from the family would die of illness almost every year. After having grown up in such an environment you don't fear death because you are familiar with it. Today, people are more "protected", and that's mostly a good thing. The side effect is that some people seem to be too much afraid of death.

What I despite is those "capitaliso-atheist" people who aren't atheist because of their own conviction that there is no god, but because they're too busy watching TV, window shopping, watching soccer and other dumb thing that they forgot to even ask themselves if god exists. They won't go to church but won't hesitate to spend lots of money to celebrate Christmas - no the birth of Jesus of course but this horror of feat of capitalism and consumption it has turned into. Arguing about that in a foreign language is hard for me but I hope you see the picture and what I mean. A good atheist should not celebrate Christmas, a good Christian should celebrate is by going to the church and celebrate the birth of Jesus. Anything else is pure crap (the same happens to Easter by the way).

I don't want to enter into a thick debate either, but you're damn right my point of view is atheist. You can believe whatever you want but humanity has collectively spent the last 2000 years enforcing religion on everyone, usually under penalty of death

I belive you are referring to the colonisations, and those started in the 15th century, so that's been much less years than what you say. And yeah those guys were miserables and as much un-Christian as they could get.

What bugs me is always with how much convictions some atheists are enforcing their absence of religion on everyone , and yes some of them did it with "death penaly", Hitler, Stalin, Mao, does they remember you something? Yes I know there were not representative of all atheists, but so were the Spanish colons who sentenced indigenous to death not representative of Christians.

If you believe in heaven then why not go slaughter everyone that's currently unhappy?

Err... You known that in Christianity murder is a capital sin, right? In most other religions too, including Islam.

Belief that there is anything that comes after death is too often treated as a free license to send people there prematurely. Belief in a higher power is too often an excuse to absolve oneself of all responsibility.

I couldn't agree more. My particular variant of Christianity faith (Protestantism) insists on individual responsibility, but many other religions do not.

And guess what? I am a terrible Christian: I almost never read the bible, I go to Church like 3 times a year, and pray like only once every 2 months outside of that. We're supposed to do this stuff everyday. It would be easier for me to give up and call myself an atheist and be done with that. But for some reason I can't revolve for it, and don't want to.

[Drew Sebastino]

Only on NESdev could a subject regarding the death of a CEO turn into a religious battle. It's not necessarily a bad thing, and usually that just means the old subject has gotten old and we've found something else to talk about, which is completely fine.

Espozo compared Splatoon to some desaturated FPS

It's so generic, that you don't even know what it is. It's some Call of Duty game. (I don't have a clue which one because they all look the same.)

True, Splatoon is more colorful than, say, the "artistic" first-person ink shooter The Unfinished Swan. But how does Splatoon compare to Fat Princess?

What?

If you had lived his exact life odds are good you would have made his exact choices too.

Along with Bregalad, I'm calling BS on that. I wouldn't call Steve Jobs Hitler, but he isn't exactly a saint either. I can sure as hell tell you I wouldn't have done half of the stuff he did, or at least I'd like to think that. I don't know what drugs Steve Jobs gave Steve Wozniak to do all his work.

A good atheist should not celebrate Christmas, a good Christian should celebrate is by going to the church and celebrate the birth of Jesus. Anything else is pure crap (the same happens to Easter by the way).

So basically, 99% of atheists are "bad" atheists. I completely agree though. Christmas and Easter have become corporate holidays, and there's nothing more I hate than corporate BS like EA, who is more interested in following "trends" or whatever than making a quality product. People just don't know any better I guess.

And guess what? I am a terrible Christian: I almost never read the bible, I go to Church like 3 times a year, and pray like only once every 2 months outside of that. We're supposed to do this stuff everyday. It would be easier for me to give up and call myself an atheist and be done with that. But for some reason I can't revolve for it, and don't want to.

Yeah, I really don't understand the whole "not having responsibilities" thing. If anything, aren't you more responsible for you actions because you are trying to glorify whatever god you believe in?

[Khaz]

I do regret getting involved, mostly because this forum seems to take grave offense at things getting "off topic". I'm not trying to derail things, I'm not angry and I'm not trying to offend anyone here. I am just looking to have this brief debate politely, if others are willing to allow it. I don't think we should be afraid to discuss subjects like religion. The worst thing that happens is you walk away not-friends with somebody, which is hardly a tragedy on the internet...

If you had lived his exact life odds are good you would have made his exact choices too. Dehumanizing that just keeps us from learning from his mistakes, because you inherently assume anyone "good" would never make them.

That's where you are wrong

Uh, I dare you to prove it? Yes genetics plays a role, but how big of a role is open to debate. I say it's entirely possible others would have followed almost exactly in his shoes, given the same upbringing. This is a currently unprovable idea and you can't say I'm wrong any more than I can say you are.

All that to say, that yes it is correct to blame him, because he was responsible of what he did, in my point of view.

Your belief is that the only reason he acted the way he did instead of the way someone else would have, is his genetics. So you're saying it's correct to blame him for being born with the genes he had?

I also believe maybe some people find death horrifying because they're not [accustomed] to it. Back then people were born in poor families of 10 kids and someone from the family would die of illness almost every year. After having grown up in such an environment you don't fear death because you are familiar with it.

Yes, yes you do still fear death, even if you're "used to it". Everything fears death. As I said in my first post, evolution has made sure of that. A living thing that wants to die isn't going to be around very long. Which, honestly, makes it a wonder religion has survived so long when they try so hard to make death seem desirable.

What I despite is those "capitaliso-atheist" people [...] They won't go to church but won't hesitate to spend lots of money to celebrate Christmas - no the birth of Jesus of course but this horror of feat of capitalism and consumption it has turned into. [...] A good atheist should not celebrate Christmas

Yes, I loathe capitalism and the obligatory gift-buying. However, saying an atheist should not celebrate Christmas is false and selfish. An atheist should celebrate WHATEVER THEY WANT, because their life is theirs to do whatever they please with. If they want to celebrate Christmas and read the bible every night and go to church every sunday, and still be atheist, they have every right to do so. That is the beauty of atheism: Only religious people have obligations of which holidays they should or should not celebrate.

I belive you are referring to the colonisations, and those started in the 15th century, so that's been much less years than what you say.

I am referring to the entire history of religion. People were killed for not being Christian since the very year Christianity was founded and it's never completely stopped to this day. Same thing holds true for almost every other religion ever concieved. Generally speaking though, if you look at the last 2000 years, the common belief has been that the only thing worse than believing in a different god is believing in no god at all.

What bugs me is always with how much convictions some atheists are enforcing their absence of religion on everyone

Do note one of the first things I said was "you can believe whatever you want". I am not the thought police. Your beliefs can be as crazy as you want so long as they don't conflict with your ability to interact with the rest of society in a healthy manner. If your beliefs bring harm to others, like this, then you should not be allowed to have them. No matter what you believe, your first responsibility is to reality.

Err... You known that in Christianity murder is a capital sin, right? In most other religions too, including Islam.

It's a sin for you to murder others. It's a sin for people to commit suicide. However, it is not a sin to BE murdered. Hence, by your beliefs, it logically follows that murdering as many suffering people as you can is a noble act, because it ends their suffering in exchange for dooming only your own soul. If you are a person that is already for-sure going to hell, for example, then in this scenario you lose nothing and everybody else wins as a result of your murder-spree, it's a complete win-win. If you have trouble with the idea that killing people is a good thing, maybe you should have trouble with the idea of an afterlife to begin with.

[tepples]

True, Splatoon is more colorful than, say, the "artistic" first-person ink shooter The Unfinished Swan. But how does Splatoon compare to Fat Princess?

What?

I'm saying that if you want to compare Nintendo exclusives to PlayStation exclusives, you should try to find games with similar aesthetics, such as colorful fantasy world vs. colorful fantasy world. Not all games for PlayStation 3 and 4 look like Call of Brown Doody. If Fat Princess isn't to your liking, perhaps you could compare the game that reminds people of calamari to Katamari.

I completely agree though. Christmas and Easter have become corporate holidays

I've written my own thoughts elsewhere about the commercialization of birthdays and Christmas.

Which, honestly, makes it a wonder religion has survived so long when they try so hard to make death seem desirable.

Probably to make your own death seem more desirable than the deaths of several others in the course of attempting to avoid your own.

[Bregalad]

Only on NESdev could a subject regarding the death of a CEO turn into a religious battle.

As long as it does not evolve into Youtube-comments style, I feel no problem deviating to another subject.

Yes, yes you do still fear death, even if you're "used to it". Everything fears death. As I said in my first post, evolution has made sure of that. A living thing that wants to die isn't going to be around very long. Which, honestly, makes it a wonder religion has survived so long when they try so hard to make death seem desirable.

You got it all wrong. Fearing death and having or lacking the desire to live is two completely separate things. You seem to assume everyone who do not fear death is suicidal. I can not fear death while still having the desire to live and having survival behaviour.

However, saying an atheist should not celebrate Christmas is false and selfish. An atheist should celebrate WHATEVER THEY WANT, because their life is theirs to do whatever they please with. If they want to celebrate Christmas and read the bible every night and go to church every sunday, and still be atheist, they have every right to do so. That is the beauty of atheism: Only religious people have obligations of which holidays they should or should not celebrate.

You got a point, also the same can be said for modern Christians. There's nothing that prevents a Christian from ignoring Christmas entirely if he feels up like to, and considering how it turned out to be a consummer-orgy in western democracies I don't doubt some christians already took that path. It might be different for other religions, though. The obligation for muslims to observe ramadan, and the obligation for jews not to work on Sabbat days comes to mind, however I am no specialist.

If you are a person that is already for-sure going to hell, for example,

You can never be sure for going to hell or not. There is many different beliefs in this regards and honestly I don't adhere to any of them particularly so I can't extend, however, a good Christian will never kill someone else.

People were killed for not being Christian since the very year Christianity was founded

Wrong. Revisit your history before arguing.

[Khaz]

People were killed for not being Christian since the very year Christianity was founded

Wrong. Revisit your history before arguing.

Maybe bring some citations before just flat-out calling me wrong. But you can't, though, because this is another thing that's impossible to prove. All it takes is one single example of a murder in the name of god from that era to prove me right. Your side literally cannot be proven, because even if you scour every trace of history from that period you cannot prove that such a thing did not happen. Even if there is no mention of it happening, which I sorely doubt, bear in mind our historical records from the time have been trusted to largely-christian hands ever since. Erasing something from history may be near impossible today, but before the invention of the printing press it was often as simple as burning one single piece of paper, and people had every motive in the world to burn those papers.

My original point was that, for the last 2000 years or so and almost certainly more than that, atheists have been oppressed and villified by the religious. Any attempt at pursuing an atheistic philosophy of life has ranged from discouraged to outright forbidden since the ancient Greeks died off through to the last hundred or so years. Prove that statement wrong and I will be impressed.

[Drew Sebastino]

Wow, salt levels off the charts!

I'm saying that if you want to compare Nintendo exclusives to PlayStation exclusives, you should try to find games with similar aesthetics, such as colorful fantasy world vs. colorful fantasy world. Not all games for PlayStation 3 and 4 look like Call of Brown Doody. If Fat Princess isn't to your liking, perhaps you could compare the game that reminds people of calamari to Katamari.

I don't think I was comparing Nintendo exclusives to PlayStation exclusives, but rather "manly" to "childish" games, and how I have no clue how people prefer the looks of something like Call of Duty. I think I did say that the PlayStation and particularly the Xbox brand are known to have more "manly" games than Nintendo, but I never meant to compare the "childish" games from both. Looking at Fat Princess, I do think Splatoon does look better, but I don't think that all of Nintendo's "childish" games do. For some reason, I've never been a fan of cell-shading, and I don't think it's very convincing in making 3D graphics appear like 2D graphics.