SGDQ Is Live

[Khaz]

Figured I'd mention, in case you're like me and usually forget it's happening until long after it's over. Link for the lazy here.

Feel free to use this thread as a discussion of all things speedrunning. I enjoy both live and tool-assisted runs myself (TASing Dragon View is how I learned 65816 to start with), though I find it hard to stay interested if it's a game I haven't played before. I enjoy seeing how much better than me people can get, if they put in the practise.

Yoshi's Island is on now. One of the few games I'd rather watch someone else dominate than play myself. I got very little enjoyment out of it despite what were no doubt some very impressive game mechanics (all the crying might have something to do with it).

(yes I plugged myself so shoot me, it's the only TAS I'll ever do...)

[Drew Sebastino]

Well, since we're talking about speed runs, even though this is tool assisted, this is still insane. (look at 8:40)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ze0RXDU5HQ

[Khaz]

That is some pretty epic abuse of physics right there.

My personal favourite moments in TASing bar none are SMW Arbitrary Code Execution by Masterjun, and Mega Man 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 by Baxter & AngerFist, all beaten simultaneously with the same controller input.

The day somebody beats Sonics 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles all with the same controller input, I will have a new favourite.

[Drew Sebastino]

Mega Man 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 by Baxter & AngerFist, all beaten simultaneously with the same controller input.

And I thought that the one I showed was cool...

[Bregalad]

Mega Man 3 & 4 & 5 & 6 by Baxter & AngerFist, all beaten simultaneously with the same controller input.

I just watched the first 30 seconds and it's obvious they do not have the same controller input.

[Joe]

According to the authors, they abuse lots of frame-exact timing to prevent inputs from affecting the wrong game.

[Bregalad]

How do you explain mega man can go up in one video, left on another and right in yet another then? Perhaps they use simulatenous left+right but then it does not count as an achievement in my opinion.

[thefox]

Perhaps they use simulatenous left+right but then it does not count as an achievement in my opinion.

Why?

[Joe]

Of course, completing an entire 'left-room' takes longer than it takes for a screen to scroll. Often, we tried to make the game that has to move left face left, while the others face right. This can for instance be done in a frame of lag at other games. When dropping down into a 'left-room', it is good to face left for a frame, right before the screen starts scrolling.

When the screen is scrolling down, the other games are able to progress to the right. After the screen is done scrolling, it is possible to move left in the left-room, and still move right in the other games, with sliding by pressing down+A. This doesn't change the direction of megaman, which makes it possible to move in different directions in different games. A nice example of this comes early in the run, when Mega Man 5 drops down in the second room of starman (the first level). It doesn't always work however. When Mega Man needs to jump in such a room, left will have to be pushed, which is why sometimes the other Mega Mans are affected. Mega Man 6 can avoid this a little, since megaman6 will move left when you press left and right at the same time. The other Mega Man games won't move, so it is easier to movie left with Mega Man 6 than with other Mega Man games. If you stop walking, Mega Man will take a few frames to get in his final standing position. During these frames, it's also sometimes possible to press left without changing megamans direction.

This short time it takes for Mega Man to position himself after running was also used in other occasions. For example when one of the games has to jump to the left, and it was possible to keep another Mega Man which didn't need to move to the left on the ground. If pressing left is skipped for a frame, the Mega Man on the ground will position himself for like ten frames, so he won't move to the left. The Mega Man who is moving to the left will only stop moving for one frame since he is on the air. It was also used at instances where Mega Man had to move on a rushjet to the left, and a lot when multiple boss battles where going on at the same time.

You can read the rest of the description here.

[rainwarrior]

Perhaps they use simulatenous left+right but then it does not count as an achievement in my opinion.

Why?

Because Bregalad keeps very arbitrary standards to make sure that nothing will ever please him. ;P

[Bregalad]

Uh, what?

Left+right or up+down is impossible to do on a NES controller, thus using such a combination to trick a game into doing something is cheating.

[Khaz]

Coming from one who has been through the process, the TASVideos people judge submissions very strictly. They independently verify the results and have high standards (in my opinion sometimes too high) on what they'll allow through. My Dragon View run nearly got rejected because the (ridiculously long) ending cutscene glitches up partway through and doesn't finish. I think I was cut a break on account of mine is the only Dragon View TAS ever submitted.

Uh, what?

Left+right or up+down is impossible to do on a NES controller, thus using such a combination to trick a game into doing something is cheating.

I thought their rules or guidelines specifically addressed that but I can't find it. This is not the only TAS to abuse that "illegal" input - I believe it's required for the LttP glitch run that's over in 2 minutes for example. It HAS been the subject of some controversy, and I think runs using it may be treated as a separate category.

The reasoning for allowing it, as I understand, is that a dismantled, modified or even just "broken" controller would allow a player to press both buttons at once. The TAS philosophy is supposed to be what a superhuman player could do, using only the game and console. I would reason that breaking the controller to beat the game faster would fall into that category. If your run however requires an external cheat device, a hacked ROM, or anything else which is not explicitly just the stock game+console, that would be cheating.

The few games I've "hacked" so far all blank controller input if that illegal combination is found, so I'd say if a game fails to do so that's fair game to exploit.

EDIT: just to ramble a bit further, I think the dividing line between accepting a TAS that uses a broken controller and accepting one that, for example, requires one to tilt the cartridge in the slot (as both still just require the game and console) is reproducibility. You can argue theoretically that momentarily breaking contact on a couple pins might beat the game, but inputting a classically-forbidden controller combination is something we can (and do) easily verify on real hardware.

[thefox]

Left+right or up+down is impossible to do on a NES controller, thus using such a combination to trick a game into doing something is cheating.

It seems strange to disqualify it as an achievement based on an arbitrary rule like that. It's also downright ignorant to question the authenticity of the video based on watching 30 seconds of it and not being able to explain what is happening.

On Famicom it's actually possible to press left+right at the same time in a legit way by plugging in two controllers (if the game combines the inputs from both sources). You can see that in action in this video (which happens to be made by rainwarrior): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXuxNjXNKkw But that's really beside the point; TAS videos are not generally concerned about the mechanical limitations of the default controller of the system.

(What if there's a 3rd party controller that allows you to press both direction simultaneously? Does it make it legit?)

[tokumaru]

TAS videos are not generally concerned about the mechanical limitations of the default controller of the system.

Everything about a TAS is impossible to do on a real console, so pressing left + right is hardly a deal breaker when it comes to authenticity.

I have to agree that the video is not as exciting as the description makes it sound though. I mean, it's too perfect, they abused the times when input is ignored so much that you can hardly tell it's the same input. Don't get me wrong, this is a hell of an achievement, and it's very, very impressive, but the video is just not very fun to watch when it looks like just 4 independent TASes. I was expecting weird/funny things like Mega Man running against a wall in one game while actually going somewhere in another, or the 4 of them making the exact same jump, but there's hardly any of that.

[JRoatch]

(What if there's a 3rd party controller that allows you to press both direction simultaneously? Does it make it legit?)

I've recently acquired such a controller called The Game Handler, and I've confirmed it can press all directions in any combination.

Speaking of TAS videos at SGDQ, I'm excited for what I believe is the console verification of the Ikaruga double play run. Even tough it's going to be simply going to be playback of the encoded video.

I also saw this news item pop up at tasvideos: Announcing a speed TAS race at SGDQ 2015!. The game apparently is going to be a "legally redistributable NES ROM file", that "can be completed in under 6 minutes". I wonder what homebrew game this'll be.