nesdev.org

I recently played a whole bunch of NES games, and my take away was...wow, it is hard just to do basic things in MOST NES games...jump, run, punch. Most games, I'm dying quickly on level 1 because I couldn't time punching the enemy, or it was a short enemy that is essentially impossible to punch.

Castlevania works, because you have a big whip that can hit enemies long before they get to you, but other games, all you can do is punch like 8 pixels in front of you - and only if you're perfectly lined up.

I totally get the AVGN now. Try to play through most of these games without being frustrated.

I still love some of these games. But, I like the gameplay in more modern games better. I think they play test games more these days.

To be fair, most of those games were already considered awful back then. It's just that people prefer to remember the ones that did not do that crap.

This needs to be asked: Were you playing on a modern LCD/Plasma TV or an old CRT TV? It (ie: 2-6 frames of lag) makes a world of difference...

...so much so that I can't stand playing the NES/Turbo on an LCD.

I was playing on a new LCD flatscreen.

My only complaint is that my TV noticably sharpens the picture.

Do you think my TV has some kind of image latency?

Almost guaranteed.

Do you have a camcorder with a 60 fps mode? If so, try this test ROM on a PowerPak and put both the controller and the TV in frame, like this:


CRT: lag free; LCD: about 4 frames (83 ms)

You also suggested this in 2014...

You can test display lag by running one composite signal through a splitter into two TVs

dougeff wrote:I was playing on a new LCD flatscreen.

My only complaint is that my TV noticably sharpens the picture.

Do you think my TV has some kind of image latency?

No wonder....most likely the upscaling and/or image processing is adding quite a bit of latency making timing sensitive games very hard. This latency problem has been heavily documented on the internet. Putting the TV in game mode if it has one MIGHT help.

Are you playing via an emulator or an actual NES?

You can check and see if your TV's input lag has been tested and documented here...

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/input-lag

Actual NES.

I have 2 CRT TVs in storage. I don't use them because they have lousy image quality.

The "sharpness" control in the TV's picture menu controls a filter that amplifies high spatial frequencies. You should turn it down until you don't see white ringing around black lines on a gray background. The 240p test suite has a card for this.

While you're likely getting some degree of lag, I agree with your original thesis: there are tons and tons of old games with controls that are awkward, clumsy, or outright player hostile.

Sad as it is to say: fluid, smooth, playable games like SMB or Kirby or Mega Man were totally the exception, not the rule, on the NES.

I'm curious, to what games are you referring?

One game that surprised me in it's lack of quality was the NES port of Double Dragon. Granted, going back now, the Double Dragon games seem a little stiff anyway, but that aside, let's assume Double Dragon II is fine. I had a lot of fun playing it with my brother/cousins when I was a kid. My brother and I had Double Dragon for SMS and it was a solid port.

However, Double Dragon for the NES (perhaps more accurately titled Single Dragon, as only one person can play at a time) was pretty amazing for the fact that these successful arcade developers were unable to overcome basic hurdles in development for this console, and for one reason or another weren't willing to admit that and hire someone else to do the port.

And my "favorite" part has to be this, my vote for worst NES song ever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ9QnXJJUu8

It starts out sub-mediocre, but just wait...

dougeff wrote:Actual NES.

I have 2 CRT TVs in storage. I don't use them because they have lousy image quality.

Might be worth trying said games on your CRT's if possible to see if the timing feels just as hard. Many LCD TV's will lag pretty badly when upscaling the NES video output.

Modern games have the same lag issue, they just take it into account.

Really if your timing window for success is so small that it can't accommodate a few frames of lag, it's poor design. People can't respond that fast. Eliminating lag is a small performance bonus for the player, but it shouldn't make or break the game.

e.g. I find Punch Out to be nearly unplayable on a CRT, and definitely unplayable on an LCD. Super Punch Out on the other hand I find completely fair on an LCD. It's just got a different design mentality that gives you enough lead time to react.

I've played a lot of NES games under lag conditions, though, and I'd say that there aren't many where I think it's a big issue. Punch Out is the one stand-out example I can think of. Even "hard" games like Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden tend to have adequate lead time in the game's design.

darryl.revok wrote:Double Dragon for the NES ... my "favorite" part has to be this, my vote for worst NES song ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ9QnXJJUu8
It starts out sub-mediocre, but just wait...

I actually like the second half a lot better. The sound is interesting, and not just loud blaring squares anymore, blends better as background music. Funny that this track doesn't seem to be based on any of the original arcade tracks either.