nesdev.org

GradualGames wrote:Being a man, I actually much prefer women who look like actual real women, I find the exaggerated proportions ridiculous and not really attractive. But thinking about these issues in the context of NES games? Come on.

And especially when a lot of NES games use a Graphics Induced Super Deformed style. In fact, exaggeration is seen as so integral to the style that when it's not chibi, it's seen as "gritty".

Heck, for some character designs, redoing them in the style of Peanuts would actually reduce the exaggeration:


Aaron Neuwirth reports on a set of illustrations by @baronvongrant of over a dozen TV series with their main characters "Peanutized"

Espozo wrote:I'm not a big fan of extremely thin waists either, especially coupled with giant boobs that make many female characters look like their torso could snap in half from all the weight it's supporting.

You could say the same about some characters' necks.

M_Tee wrote:if a creator wants to make a quality product, then they need to make each decision consciously and for a reason, whatever reason that may be.

Somewhat off the topic of diversity, but speaking for me personally, I don't think I've ever had a reason for any decision I've made in anything I've created. As a musician, I'm an improviser---so the music I write changes constantly. Is there a reason I went one direction or another? Used one chord or another? Nope. Some things might come off better than others, but analyzing precisely why doesn't really help me much---simply gaining experience with it is what seems to bring improvement. Pure intuition. Not that there's anything wrong with thinking a lot about what one creates---it's just not how I do it personally.

In terms of games, I rarely think there either--I just pick ideas from my childhood and run with them, much like improvising. There's never a reason. It's just how a child fantasizes---total nonsense, total joy, total fantasy.

Not saying that applies to everyone, at all! I'm quite the outlier in this regard---the vast majority of game development folks I've met do in fact seem to enjoy thinking a great deal about what they create, and more power to them!

GradualGames wrote:All I know is, I had a huge crush on Marle from Chrono Trigger when I was about 13.

This is the sexiest girl of my childhood:

M_Tee wrote: Those that oppose diversity of characters.

Is there somebody in this thread that opposes diversity? I haven't spotted a single post in here that opposes it. I only oppose obsessing over it as though it is important---especially when in my own case, diversity appeared of its own accord, just by sourcing my childhood. In my childhood, I had no political ideas whatsoever---and had black heroes and female heroes without anybody saying: "Derek, you are white and privileged. You'd better start thinking about these other groups." To me that's real diversity. The world is diverse just by being itself. No agenda needs to be advanced to make it happen.

GradualGames wrote:Those that oppose diversity of characters.

You never heard that I was a Klan member?

Okay, being serious, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think diversity will come naturally.

I don't believe I lean toward one side or the other in this debate on this topic. In fact, I don't know if the topic really should elicit a debate rather than a discussion. However, I believe I can understand why some people would take a defensive stance from the way it's been presented. This is a hobby for everyone here as far as I know. As such, people are working on actualizing their own visions and creating their own contribution. For better or worse, this gives the hobbyist creative autonomy over what choices go into their work. The suggestion that someone should introduce a certain decision making process into their creativity is a suggestion of removing a certain bit of that creative autonomy.

It may seem petty to be offended at the suggestion; that a person should shrug it off if they don't accept the suggestion, but I don't think that would be a particularly empathetic way of looking at it. I believe there are valid reasons a person might have that response. Especially if they've already put a lot of effort into their craft.

If the theory is that reiterating sexist stereotypes reinforces the suggestion that those are the appropriate norms, then I believe it would stand to reason that reiterating a position that one should introduce a certain thought process into their creativity would reinforce the image that a person should be doing these things in order to meet approval.

At that point a person would be making their game to satisfy external opinions rather than their own.

M_Tee wrote:...if a creator wants to make a quality product, then they need to make each decision consciously and for a reason, whatever reason that may be.

(I've read through all of the posts as they've been made and skimmed through the whole thread a few times while writing and I'm not sure exactly what rainwarrior quote you're paraphrasing. I do tend to believe this reflects more of your personal opinion than an actual statement rainwarrior said but please correct me if I'm wrong.)

I like to attempt to avoid using statements that connote objectivity unless I truly believe the statement is not influenced by my own opinion. In this thread, it's been stated that at least one person does not like to put much conscious efforts into their creative choices. I'd also say that this person has released what appears to me, from previews, to be the most polished, professional looking, completed NES homebrew yet. (eagerly awaiting my copy) I'd also corroborate that I like to work heavily from intuition for nearly any creative process. Even coding. I take an approach where I like to apply analytical review later. Because I didn't think too hard about doing it the first time, sometimes I'll do something in a way contrary to conventions, and in the process, learn a new method. It's less constraining, I believe, to think less and have more fun when you're creating the bulk of a work, and naturally you'll analyze things more over the creative process as you review your work a million times.

Also, from my perspective, It's hard for me to find the emotional base for a work, my personal connection, the driving force behind anything I want to create, through a method other than intuition. My game concepts come more from nights spent on a couch with friends up all hours lit by the glow of the CRT with controllers in our hands, rather than from time spent applying a disciplined process to my ideas and considerations of their place in modern society. But that's solely my process. There are plenty of people who have a more organized approach than I, and most likely have more classical training.

I don't think that my perspective on the matter of diversity in NES games and in general is too different from yours, but I would have to make a lot of changes to make a statement like the one that I pasted. This is what I would say have to say personally, if this was my opinion:

example wrote:...I believe that in order to create the strongest work possible, then an artist should be conscious of the reasoning behind all creative decisions made.

As this thread has progressed, language has escalated to make assertions that we have certain external responsibilities in the creation of our games.

M_Tee wrote:As creators of globally-spread media, like it or not, we have a responsibility in the material that we produce. We pretty much have three choices: intentionally spite that responsibility (those that do this are loud enough about it that I feel it doesn't even warrant further discussion), ignore it (default to white male, perpetuate tropes, etc.), or take it into consideration (and likely produce more inclusive, and more unique, products while doing so).

I don't feel this statement is objective. Does a person doing a hobby for their own personal enjoyment have an actual external responsibility which must be fulfilled? The implication that they do denotes negative consequences for not fulfilling this responsibility. Also, it seems to me that you're saying that the perspectives of those who oppose your decision don't warrant discussion.

I don't feel that the topic is the issue but rather the way it's approached. If someone made a statement that as NES developers we have the responsibility to create games that meet some technical criteria, I would believe the statement would be met with equally oppositional sentiment. It is kind of insulting, I feel, to directly impose your own sense of moral responsibility upon others.

I feel I have a right to speak in this matter because I'm the only one who was specifically called out for not having diversity in my game project. In fact, one of my game decisions reflecting upon diversity was called, "uninspired for lack of a better word." There seemed to be an asserted sentiment that I am "copying" Contra, and that I had not considered making my game different from my inspiration. I never once used the words copy or clone in my posts. In fact, I said:

darryl.revok wrote:The game is intended to take inspiration from, and parody Konami's Contra, while at the same time bringing its own approach to the genre.

so to receive in response to my decision not to modify my character to a different ethnicity, this:

M_Tee wrote:As in, "Okay, I'm copying Contra, but how will mine be different? Why should people want to play mine instead of Contra?" could be valid thoughts to have during development.

was, in my opinion, not valid criticism. I'm a fan of your art, but that, and being called uninspired was, in my opinion, mildly insulting.

I posted earlier in the thread, an anecdote about a forum member who previously sought an NES game with a female protagonist, but quickly dismissed any existing games as not meeting his standards. So he then proceeded to develop this game and it is, as far as I can see, nearing completion. He didn't, as far as I know, seek to impose his vision or his criteria upon any existing projects. He set off to make the game himself.

I believe the most tactful way for a person to go about making this point, would be to begin a good game project which features diversity. Then post their work, and say that they made a lot of decisions to reflect diversity because this is important in our modern society. I don't see how anyone could take offense at a statement of diversity being important to the author. If others like and respect the work, they'll be consciously and subconsciously influenced in favor of diversity by the experience.

darryl.revok wrote:

M_Tee wrote:...if a creator wants to make a quality product, then they need to make each decision consciously and for a reason, whatever reason that may be.

(I've read through all of the posts as they've been made and skimmed through the whole thread a few times while writing and I'm not sure exactly what rainwarrior quote you're paraphrasing. I do tend to believe this reflects more of your personal opinion than an actual statement rainwarrior said but please correct me if I'm wrong.)

It's a few steps away from what I was saying.

It's possible to produce good work without thinking about what you're doing. I wouldn't suggest that a thoughtless approach is the best approach, but I wouldn't categorize it as poor quality because of that by itself. The subconscious can produce good work, you know? That wasn't my point.

The advice was really about how to be confident in your work, and to be able to deal with criticism. If you've acted without care, well, of course you might feel threatened by a question like "why did you do that?"

You don't owe anybody a response to that question, either, but that doesn't mean you won't answer it for yourself. If your answer is weak, that's how you're going to feel when you consider it. If you make public works, they will be talked about and criticized, and if you want to begin to cope with that it really helps if you've at least justified your actions to yourself.

GradualGames wrote:

M_Tee wrote: Those that oppose diversity of characters.

Is there somebody in this thread that opposes diversity?

A poor choice of words, perhaps. "Those that don't see an issue with the current state of diversity within homebrew games." would have been significantly better phrasing on my end.

darryl.revok wrote:

M_Tee wrote:...if a creator wants to make a quality product, then they need to make each decision consciously and for a reason, whatever reason that may be.

(I've read through all of the posts as they've been made and skimmed through the whole thread a few times while writing and I'm not sure exactly what rainwarrior quote you're paraphrasing. I do tend to believe this reflects more of your personal opinion than an actual statement rainwarrior said but please correct me if I'm wrong.)

The following quotes (pulled from separate posts) which emphasize having a reason behind creative decisions are what I was attempting to (and apparently failed to) paraphrase:

rainwarrior wrote:...
If you don't have a strong idea about who your character is, though, it's worth thinking about what you ended up choosing, and whether it could be different.

...
If you don't have a reason for it, get one. There are good reasons to choose ambiguity too, I don't want to characterize that as the product of weak goals. I just want to stress that it's important to have a goal, here.

...

Hiding behind the excuse that it's an arbitrary decision reveals the weakness in your craft. "It was arbitrary" means "it was a weak decision".

EDIT (after seeing rw's response): Perhaps in the future, I'll take the time to quote instead.

darryl.revok wrote: In fact, one of my game decisions reflecting upon diversity was called, "uninspired for lack of a better word." There seemed to be an asserted sentiment that I am "copying" Contra, and that I had not considered making my game different from my inspiration. I never once used the words copy or clone in my posts. In fact, I said:

darryl.revok wrote:The game is intended to take inspiration from, and parody Konami's Contra, while at the same time bringing its own approach to the genre.

so to receive in response to my decision not to modify my character to a different ethnicity, this:

M_Tee wrote:As in, "Okay, I'm copying Contra, but how will mine be different? Why should people want to play mine instead of Contra?" could be valid thoughts to have during development.

was, in my opinion, not valid criticism. I'm a fan of your art, but that, and being called uninspired was, in my opinion, mildly insulting.

No insult was intended for sure. I try to post my criticism in a manner that would be suitable for say, a peer review or a portfolio critique... and if I've failed in doing so, then so be it.

However, "How does what you're planning to make differ from what's already available?" and "Why would a player/viewer/reader/listener desire to play/watch/read/listen to the work?" both still seem like valid things to consider for any creator.

darryl.revok wrote:

M_Tee wrote:As creators of globally-spread media, like it or not, we have a responsibility in the material that we produce. We pretty much have three choices: intentionally spite that responsibility (those that do this are loud enough about it that I feel it doesn't even warrant further discussion), ignore it (default to white male, perpetuate tropes, etc.), or take it into consideration (and likely produce more inclusive, and more unique, products while doing so).

I don't feel this statement is objective. Does a person doing a hobby for their own personal enjoyment have an actual external responsibility which must be fulfilled? The implication that they do denotes negative consequences for not fulfilling this responsibility. Also, it seems to me that you're saying that the perspectives of those who oppose your decision don't warrant discussion.

In regards to objectivity, there's no need for me to add qualifiers to my statements.

As for the consequences of our choices in representation, wheelinventor hit on the topic some here:

An interesting case with skintone in NES era games is that it very well reflects the media landscape of the time. People with dark or black skintone are restrictively (and in the case of nes, i think, only) represented in athletic contexts, especially boxing, or as in the many street beat 'em up-styled games, are tied to a street gang cliché. The problem here is that these are the only canals of reprensentation in videogames of the time. This is a schoolbook example of power through representation.

...and where those statements were made about negative representation of a group, I am applying them to a lack of representation as well.

Regardless, I enjoy the discussion, and although I am, as a creator, trying to incorporate issues that I feel are important to me work, I definitely don't believe that only creators are justified in criticism.

M_Tee wrote:However, "How does what you're planning to make differ from what's already available?" and "Why would a player/viewer/reader/listener desire to play/watch/read/listen to the work?" both still seem like valid things to consider for any creator.

That's fine, but if you would have more carefully read what I had wrote before posting, I believe you would have seen that I have already considered this. Also to imply that my intentions are to "copy" Contra is putting words in my mouth. I never said copy or a synonym of it in describing my project.

M_Tee wrote:In regards to objectivity, there's no need for me to add qualifiers to my statements.

That's fine if you feel that's bad writing. But in my opinion, when you start tossing around phrases like "we have a responsibility", objectively, it's bordering on coercion.

One has to look no further than the recent James Rolfe incident to see further consequences of stating an opinion which could even be misconstrued to stand in opposition to the current wave of aggressive diversification. Personal attacks and accusations of bigotry could come from sources not even connected to the original criticism of the comment.

I have more faith in the members here than to feel it necessary to weight them with a responsibility and consequences in order to consider the issue. Simply saying, "Anybody else think it would be cool to see more black people in NES homebrew?" Might open the topic in a more friendly way, leaving the implication of any social ramifications to the reader's mind. Not a single person here has said that they are opposed to seeing non-white characters in games, but rather that they are opposed to being pressured into placing them there, so who needs the guilt trip?

M_Tee wrote:Regardless, I enjoy the discussion, and although I am, as a creator, trying to incorporate issues that I feel are important to me work, I definitely don't believe that only creators are justified in criticism.

Well I certainly didn't say that either. I said that the criticism was invalid because it was based upon assumptions about my game which, 1) I did not make, and 2) were false.

darryl.revok wrote:That's fine, but if you would have more carefully read what I had wrote before posting, I believe you would have seen that I have already considered this. Also to imply that my intentions are to "copy" Contra is putting words in my mouth. I never said copy or a synonym of it in describing my project.

Okay, so there was clearly a miscommunication based upon my oversimplification of "take inspiration from and parody" to "copying." I didn't choose the word "copy" as a criticism or an insult. I could have simply said, "So you're making a game inspired by and parodying Contra, how will yours differ?" and it would have communicated my intention. Should I have? It seems so, so I'll attempt to phrase myself more specifically in future communication.

As for not reading more carefully, I had read the differences that you posted, which were either nuances of gameplay (such as jump mechanics, agility, number of objects on screen, and difficulty curve) or era-common tropes of the genre, mostly already present in Contra or similar games (guns, aliens, expolosions, smoking, etc.) They all sound great, but I was primarily asking in regards to thematic or visual differences, things that would be immediately and apparently different to a wider audience, not inherently familiar or critical of gameplay mechanics.

Regardless, when I made the comment including the word, uninspired, I very specifically stated that I was talking about your decision to parody Schwarzeneggar and Stallone, (not based on the race or gender or any other factor in doing so). Schwarzenegger parodies are a dime a dozen. He's probably one of the top five most parodied celebrities in the last thirty years, and Stallone's not far behind. But, I'm not a successful comedian, and games like Broforce show that there's still a market for stuff like that, so take it with a grain of salt if you'd like.

darryl.revok wrote:

M_Tee wrote:... I definitely don't believe that only creators are justified in criticism.

Well I certainly didn't say that either. I said that the criticism was invalid because it was based upon assumptions about my game which, 1) I did not make, and 2) were false.

As stated before, the first criticism of "copying" wasn't a criticism. It was a question of how it will differ, not an accusation of it not differing. Secondly, "uninspired" was a criticism of the specific choice of arnold and sly as inspiration, and I'd stand by that criticism now.

But, am I really that bad at understanding the intent of others' posts?

darryl.revok wrote: I believe the most tactful way for a person to go about making this point, would be to begin a good game project which features diversity....
There is a legend, of a man who wished to see an NES homebrew starring a female protagonist ...
He would embark on a quest, to create this game himself!
...
...He didn't, as far as I know, seek to impose his vision or his criteria upon any existing projects. He set off to make the game himself.

Because there definitely seems to be more than a tinge of "instead of criticizing the creative work of others, make creative work yourself that addresses those criticisms" to those posts.

Anyway, in regards to the issues with me stating my opinion about creator responsibility, allow me to clarify my stance:

I believe that
A lack of representation in popular culture (1) can negatively impact those that identify with the underrepresented groups.
AND As persons (2) adding to popular culture through game development, (3) we have a responsibility to minimize negative social impact of our work.
SO, we have a responsibility to represent groups that are underrepresented.

If anyone disagrees with any of the three numbered points above or the logic behind the conclusion, they're definitely free to do so. I'm not imposing these views on anyone in particular (and your game merely tangentially initiated the conversation, which I took out of your thread, so as to make it clear that this wasn't specifically targeting you or anyone else in particular). I am merely stating an argument and allowing people to agree or disagree. If they disagree, and want to express why, I encourage them to do so. Perhaps I'm overstating the effects that NES homebrew has, considering its comparatively small reach. Perhaps there's some other fault with the argument. What better way to find out than discourse at nesdev, the heart of modern NES development.

M_Tee wrote:Regardless, when I made the comment including the word, uninspired, I very specifically stated that I was talking about your decision to parody Schwarzeneggar and Stallone, (not based on the race or gender or any other factor in doing so). Schwarzenegger parodies are a dime a dozen. He's probably one of the top five most parodied celebrities in the last thirty years, and Stallone's not far behind. But, I'm not a successful comedian, and games like Broforce show that there's still a market for stuff like that, so take it with a grain of salt if you'd like.

That and the fact that the cover of Contra already looks like a paintover of Arnold and Sly.


"Contra vs. Rambo and Predator" by bleedingmedia

M_Tee wrote:But, am I really that bad at understanding the intent of others' posts?

You may be, and I am occasionally. It comes with the territory.

Because there definitely seems to be more than a tinge of "instead of criticizing the creative work of others, make creative work yourself that addresses those criticisms" to those posts.

I tried this from mid-2006 through mid-2009, after which point my answer switched to "I would but I'd get sued because fair use and other statutory limits on exclusive rights under copyright are not always clearly sufficient."

I believe that
A lack of representation in popular culture (1) can negatively impact those that identify with the underrepresented groups.
AND As persons (2) adding to popular culture through game development, (3) we have a responsibility to minimize negative social impact of our work.
SO, we have a responsibility to represent groups that are underrepresented.

If anyone disagrees with any of the three numbered points above or the logic behind the conclusion, they're definitely free to do so.

Perhaps the intended meaning is that an author making a profit from or imposing a paywall on his work has a greater reponsibility pursuant to (3). One may draw an analogy to the doctrine of vicarious liability, which comes into effect once an alleged infringer seeks a profit.

Perhaps I'm overstating the effects that NES homebrew has, considering its comparatively small reach.

Whether the game is cartridge exclusive or available as a ROM download without charge may be part of it.

darryl.revok wrote:I have more faith in the members here than to feel it necessary to weight them with a responsibility and consequences in order to consider the issue. Simply saying, "Anybody else think it would be cool to see more black people in NES homebrew?" Might open the topic in a more friendly way, leaving the implication of any social ramifications to the reader's mind. Not a single person here has said that they are opposed to seeing non-white characters in games, but rather that they are opposed to being pressured into placing them there, so who needs the guilt trip?

I agree that, I am not opposed to such thing and am opposed to force to put in but if you make the game you can design according to how you like to do. (Many computer games I design and that I wanted to design, that others do not do, although not due to black people or whatever, is also because of something perhaps I have not seen elsewhere but I wanted to have. I am reminded also I read quotation of someone who said, if the book you want to read does not yet exist, then you must write it.)

In the specific case of skin colours on NES game (and other systems too), there would also be issue of what colours are available, and how many colours can be displayed at once (and in what kind of combinations, such as per tile and per sprites and so on). It is not necessarily a problem, but in some situations it might be; I don't draw the art so I wouldn't know.

M_Tee wrote:I didn't choose the word "copy" as a criticism or an insult. I could have simply said, "So you're making a game inspired by and parodying Contra, how will yours differ?" and it would have communicated my intention. Should I have?

I don't know how other's feel but I do think that calling someone's game a "clone" or "copy" could be seen to have negative connotations.

In fact, it's funny that this was brought up. Not long ago, Streemerz was played on James and Mike Mondays where it was called a mod of bionic commando. There was a bit of discussion here on that topic: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13955

I had planned to include a briefing scene which featured wording to the effect of, "but this ain't no hack or mod. This is an all new game with original assets sent to earth to kick butt."

M_Tee wrote:They all sound great, but I was primarily asking in regards to thematic or visual differences, things that would be immediately and apparently different to a wider audience, not inherently familiar or critical of gameplay mechanics.

I feel like thematic differences would largely negate the possibility of parodying a source material which is largely devoid of plot, or of audience concern for plot. The "theme", if I was to pick one from Contra, seems to be overloading the player with action movie tropes. And that was obviously a successful formula.

Racial diversity, or lack of it, was definitely not a theme of Contra. Including such would be way too heavy-handed for this project. You mentioned a wider audience, but to me, the wider audience for an NES game are those who will draw connections from their childhood experiences. As such, I'd see making things apparently different as detracting from the potential "curb appeal" of my homebrew concept. Admittedly, the choice was made to reflect what I feel fans would want, but it was my creative decision to use that as the basis for my decision. Is it uninspired? Probably so. But is it the wrong decision for this project? I don't think so. And I stand by that.

M_Tee wrote:Because there definitely seems to be more than a tinge of "instead of criticizing the creative work of others, make creative work yourself that addresses those criticisms" to those posts.

I would say only when it comes to the point of imposition.
I didn't disdainfully reply to your initial criticism. I also wouldn't review the history of an unfamiliar user to verify that they have made homebrews before considering their criticism.

I posted in the beginning of the thread that I was worried this issue could become polarized. The anecdote I posted, was done so after this discussion had pretty much hit a wall. I posted it in anecdotal form for readers to interpret as they wished. However, I will say that of all of the angles from which I considered my post, your perception was not one of them. I'll elaborate further.

This situation is different that a criticism upon someone's work. A criticism is to say, "I don't like this graphic," or "this seems uninspired." This is a situation where a person famously, (among the forum) and humorous, sought a game with a female protagonist. After being offered many, it became clear that his qualifications for the game he wanted were much more elaborate. There was something about every game which made it unsatisfactory. It wasn't a question of the validity of his criticisms but rather the impossibility to predict their nature that made satisfying his expectations impossible.

From one perspective, the person in this story is a metaphor for the expectations of the population as a whole. It truly is impossible to know what sort of things every audience member may wish to see from your game. If you work to serve a responsibility outside of your own morality, then satisfaction with your work will always hinge on the judgement of others.

From another perspective, you could analogize his inability to find a game matching his criteria to the opposition met in this thread. By extension of that, the meaning would be that when not receiving a unanimously positive response to an increase in diversity, that you could lead by example in showing the merits to your idea.

From the most simple perspective, I would think of it like this:

darryl.revok wrote:There is a legend...

backstory involved. not necessary but helpful

darryl.revok wrote:wished to see an NES homebrew starring a female protagonist

wished to see diversity presented in NES homebrew

darryl.revok wrote:also fit a litany of other criteria.

needed to reflect a social responsibility and deep thought rather than coming as a natural extension of one's own support of diversity

darryl.revok wrote:he discovered that the game did not exist.

NES games don't reflect enough diversity

darryl.revok wrote:He would embark on a quest, to create this game himself!

it is definitely an option to make a game which does reflect diversity.

darryl.revok wrote:For at the end, awaited the game of his dreams, fitting all of the criteria he could choose

he could apply deep analytical thought to the social ramifications of his game and include vast diversity if that was the process he enjoyed

darryl.revok wrote:made so much sweeter from the satisfaction that it was crafted by his own hands.

personal satisfaction for doing so oneself would be greater than influencing someone else to modify their project or process to suit your preference

I also said that the most tactful way to make the point would be to do it yourself. That doesn't mean it's the only way. That doesn't mean that you don't have the choice to assert a moral responsibility upon the hobby, or to criticize my character choice as "uninspired" but suggest that a palette swap could alleviate this issue, but I don't think that makes it a more tactful option. Perhaps there's a middle ground between those which is more appropriate, and I wouldn't want anyone to feel they can't offer a suggestion if they see something which could be improved on my work. But all in all, the way this was handled; tactful? No.

M_Tee wrote:Perhaps I'm overstating the effects that NES homebrew has, considering its comparatively small reach. Perhaps there's some other fault with the argument. What better way to find out than discourse at nesdev, the heart of modern NES development.

Maybe. I dunno.


Edit: Added names to all quotes for clarification. Changed wording to direct one sentence to general audience.

I don't know how other's feel but I do think that calling someone's game a "clone" or "copy" could be seen to have negative connotations.

In fact, it's funny that this was brought up. Not long ago, Streemerz was played on James and Mike Mondays where it was called a mod of bionic commando. There was a bit of discussion here on that topic: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13955

I had planned to include a briefing scene which featured wording to the effect of, "but this ain't no hack or mod. This is an all new game with original assets sent to earth to kick butt."

I absolutely love this. Also, it made me think about how copying is popularly seen as negative in discourses on authencity of european origin, where there has been a strong mythos the 'lone creative genius' (directly translated from swedish, i don't know what the exact english term for this is), in itself steming from a long tradition of theology where mankind only can achieve greater things, such as art, when in contact with God/the holy ghost, since the judeochristian god is the one with creative power, not humanity, or something like that. The older meaning of 'inspired' comes from this too, at least in swedish ethymology. Again, i don't know too much about the english language but in several other european languages, the word for breath and ghost/spirit is the one and the same. Is there a similirar case between inspire and spirit? Because that would make much sense).

Contrary to this scheme of thinking about artistry, there's a term in China; "shanzhai", which means "fake" but doesn't have the negative connotations, but rather implies a smartness or ingeniousness of sorts. I'd wish my language to have such a word. It helps to balance out the negative connotations of 'fake' without altering the word 'fake' itself. It's also because i'm a firm believer of creativity as a largely collective or interpersonal phenomenon. Which also ties into the question of autheurship and notions of responsibility, but i do not think i have clear thoughts on what it implies.

All this isn't to negate your statement; of course. I just find the subject of authencity and authorship interesting.

tl;dr in response specifically to concerns over originality above. Even if you make a fan game which greatly resembles the work of somebody else, it's still yours and will have your unique stamp on it. Don't let anybody tell you your ideas are unoriginal. I think maybe one of my greatest strengths in life is to revisit familiar things over and over again and have the feeling that they are new. One of my favorite styles of music is boogie woogie piano. You couldn't possibly find something that is more tied to clichés in all of art..... And yet I find new life in it each and every day...it is one of the most beautiful forms of music that there is. Legions and legions of fellow musicians can type their reams of text about originality for the next fifty years and l will still be listening to and playing Albert Ammons boogie woogie stomp.