nesdev.org

thenewguy wrote:I try to put in diversity in my games simply because its a completely arbitrary choice anyway, so why not address a common criticism of games? The characters in the game really don't have genders or races, and it's a totally arbitrary decision, so why not?

It's not arbitrary anymore once you have a reason. Addressing criticism is a reason.

"I didn't give it any thought when I started, but now it's too much work to change" is also a reason. When you know what the reason is, you can think about whether it's a good one or not.

"I didn't give it any thought" is really a reflection that your subconscious bias made the choice for you. There's still a reason there, but you might not understand what it is. Your critic certainly doesn't understand what it is either; it's rather rude to tell people what they were thinking, unless maybe you're their hired therapist.

Even if you did something like roll dice to generate a character, that's still a very deliberate choice of action.


If you know why you did something, you should be able to assert yourself against criticism. If you weren't thinking about what you're doing, then you're vulnerable to it. Hiding behind the excuse that it's an arbitrary decision reveals the weakness in your craft. "It was arbitrary" means "it was a weak decision".


Of course, "I don't want to explain myself to you" is another way to answer the question. If someone asks a question, you're not obligated to answer them, but you can't hide from yourself. If you're ashamed of the answer, nobody can help you. Take pride in your work, and make deliberate choices that you can live with.

darryl.revok wrote:For at the end, awaited the game of his dreams... ....crafted by his own hands.

This is never a great comparison.

You simply can't enjoy a game you made in the same way you enjoy a game someone else made.

You know everything that went into it, and you laboured on it for days and days. You saw every terrible broken version of it that it took to get to the end. You saw every potential great thing you wanted it to be, and know it's living up to only a small fraction of that potential. (This feeling is greatly amplified in commercial development.)

The game of my dreams isn't made by me, it's made by someone else, so that I can experience it with with wonder and learning.


"Go make it yourself" is a great thing to encourage people to do, but it's really not the solution to their own problem. Being satisfied in a game that you made is a totally different experience than being satisfied by playing a new game.

M_Tee wrote:Thanks for the compliment. Perhaps in the future, not stating that someone should be murdered for starting a conversation that didn't particularly interest you could be a step in the right direction for introductions.

That said, I appreciate you taking the time to join the conversation. I'd love to pick your brain and find out why, exactly, the topic disgusts you so. I'm also sure that for a game you've been developing since childhood, that you have put more thought into character design than you're leading on. I'd be interested to hear that as well. But I don't know how to converse with somebody when their input boils down to "the topic shouldn't be discussed" and then insults the people discussing it for doing so.

I don't necessarily feel the need to justify my character choices with paragraphs of text, although I definitely do put paragraphs of thought into them. As I said, I'd feel it'd be irresponsible, and at least bad creator practice to do otherwise.

For example, many of us may default-to-white-dude when it comes time to design a character. Pyronaut is an example from myself. Optomon had pitched the idea that the character should be "a working joe, not predestined hero" and I really enjoyed that concept. My first design I pitched to him was a young-Ron-Howard-inspired goofy kid (early 20~something). In retrospect, I might have gone back and changed it, but he had expressed a particular affinity for it, so I stuck with it. I also still like it because in script, we make him very non-heroic, far out of his element by having to fight, and I think that turns enough tropes on their heads to justify it. I did, then, make sure the supporting NPC cast was racially diverse, and named them in a way that showed a cultural melting pot of a future, again, important to me personally, as when I have children, their names will reflect their varied parentage.

Also, you can ask Kevin to confirm, but everything I say is in reams of text. I have no idea how he sifts through it all

I had wanted to answer this but don't have access to nesdev except on my phone during the week, so all I could get out was "I love you all!" Haha. I'm actually sincere about that.

When I put up my garfield meme and spoke of insufferable people I was really talking about the legions of sneering little feminazi bitches on youtube talking about tropes and so on.

To me, talking about tropes and cliches all the time ruins the joy of video games. Why? For me, the enjoyment of video games is really a continuation of exactly how I felt as a kid: Just pure joy and wonder. I'm not trying to pick them apart. I'm not trying to analyze them. I'm not trying to make them boring for myself just because its a "save the princess" story. I'm not trying to introduce diversity for it's own sake (and as I mentioned, my ideas for games apparently already are inclusive without ever having expressly tried to do so). On top of all that, video games are often so fantastical as to have nothing whatsoever to do with diversity. Kirby is a pink blob, for example. Tetris is about blocks. I actually have never come up with a game idea about a white male, and I never once thought: "gee, I shouldn't do that because it has been done so much."

So with respect, I guess a lot of folks get a ton of enjoyment out of over analyzing games, their role in society, their impact on minorities and all these other things. For me personally, I actually *hate* doing that. I hate watching videos of people doing that (so I don't, anymore). It ruins the fun of it for me. It supplants that part of my brain that *JUST LOVES* the games.

And in addition, I think politics are very very important. Thinking about not encouraging society to be dicks to people who have rough lives (i.e. the point of diversity, I suppose) is an important thing. But...those things are all "heavy." They're all grown up. Politics can be depressing just look at the presidential race, no matter what your party is.

I would like to keep such things out of my video games. Absolutely all of it. Give me mario and the princess. Keep all that other shit AWAY.

GradualGames wrote:Kirby is a pink blob

Not really all that related to anything, But I love whenever people try and give Kirby a gender. There are no other members of the "Kirby" species to compare it to, and there are (thank God) no visible genitalia.

GradualGames wrote:legions of sneering little feminazi bitches

How have I managed to miss all of these people? I can't help but feel that people always talk about these "feminazis" because everyone else does, but I've never seen one. What exactly does a "feminazi" even do? Ask for equal pay? Ask to not be segregated from men at every corner, even if it's something that has nothing to do with sexuality? That's some scary shit...

I will agree though, the women who are voting for the female US presidential candidate (not even going to say it) just because she is a female and for no other reason, are the true sexists. Hopefully, I didn't just start anything too dangerous.

Espozo wrote:How have I managed to miss all of these people? I can't help but feel that people always talk about these "feminazis" because everyone else does, but I've never seen one. What exactly does a "feminazi" even do? Ask for equal pay? Ask to not be segregated from men at every corner, even if it's something that has nothing to do with sexuality? That's some scary shit...

I, believe it or not, have a tumblr account. And I follow some very...interesting people.

A girl who's obsessed with screaming about white privilege but not explaining how white people can shut her up, a girl who's a communist and believes that stealing is okay (she's literally said that, I'm not alluding to socialism), a girl who thinks that non minorities owe her the right to insult them because of...oppression, I guess. The third one could be considered a real feminazi.

A feminazi would be someone who says "lol men are so [xxx]" but reserves the right to generalize because men aren't the oppressed ones apparently. Someone who forgot what the world is like outside the internet and believes not in gender equality but in female dominance. "If I fight fire with fire, the flames will go out!" Is kinda the ideology there and it really won't work.

You ever want to see how common feminazis (EDIT: Not necessarily feminazis but not smart people) can be? Look up "die cis scum tumblr" on google images. You'll probably find a bunch of tumblr posts berating cis people. Not really equality there. Not feminism either.

By the way, no, racism doesn't have to be institutionalized to be racism. It has to be racism to be racism. Just wanted to throw that in there as an example of a bad excuse for "reverse" oppression.

Espozo wrote:

GradualGames wrote:Kirby is a pink blob

Not really all that related to anything, But I love whenever people try and give Kirby a gender. There are no other members of the "Kirby" species to compare it to, and there are (thank God) no visible genitalia.

Meta Knight is of Kirby's species if the "Pinky" arc in Brawl in the Family is to be believed. Both are described as male in official materials.

GradualGames wrote:legions of sneering little feminazi bitches

How have I managed to miss all of these people? I can't help but feel that people always talk about these "feminazis" because everyone else does, but I've never seen one. What exactly does a "feminazi" even do?

"Feminazi" is a term that Clemson professor Thomas Hazlett and talk radio blowhard Rush Limbaugh have occasionally used to describe a small number of radical feminists, about two dozen, who express views that appear female supremacist.

I will agree though, the women who are voting for the female US presidential candidate (not even going to say it) just because she is a female and for no other reason, are the true sexists.

I didn't vote for either of the two current front-runners. I voted with Winnie the Pooh, if the campaign sign above Pooh's front door is any indication.


A bear who feels the Bern

Espozo wrote:I love whenever people try and give Kirby a gender. There are [...] (thank God) no visible genitalia.

Cannot unsee.

tepples wrote:who express views that appear female supremacist.

So everyone complains about the female supremacist, but no one cares about the probably higher number of male supremacists? I hear it all the time where I live in the south: "Men are stronger, men are tougher", yet, these are the people who think they're hot stuff because they have jacked up pickup trucks and $300 Nike shoes and have never experienced any really tough physical activity in their lives.

Jedi QuestMaster wrote:Cannot unsee.

I'm guessing you're looking at the seam at the bottom?

tepples wrote: "Pinky" arc in Brawl in the Family

I wouldn't trust a web comic for that. I like how Samurai Goroh is there though.

Espozo wrote: So everyone complains about the female supremacist, but no one cares about the probably higher number of male supremacists? I hear it all the time where I live in the south: "Men are stronger, men are tougher", yet, these are the people who think they're hot stuff because they have jacked up pickup trucks and $300 Nike shoes and have never experienced any really tough physical activity in their lives.

I am surprised to hear that the stereotype about Texas is so accurate. Nah, I absolutely can't stand those types of people, but I find the opposite extreme to be just as bad. Have you ever been to California? The social climate here is just as malicious, even though it doesn't claim to be. A lot of the women out here are exactly what you read about on the internet: they spout hate speech on men and white alike. The 'cis white scum' thing is very real and alive here. No one out here treats fellow human beings with any respect or decency.

EDIT: Probably the reason that people complain more about female supremacists, I think, is that liberal extremists take to the internet much more easily than the stereotypical conservative extremist (computer challenged). Squeaky wheels and all that.

Guilty wrote:The social climate here is just as malicious, even though it doesn't claim to be.

It doesn't claim to be here either. Ever heard of "southern hospitality"? I like to call it southern hostility. The thing is, people here won't outright say they don't like you, they'll just hold a grudge against you to the grave. Often times, living here feels like walking on ice. That's maybe a bit exaggerated, but it still holds some truth.

I will say, I don't think I'm the only one who thinks that it's best to be somewhere between these two types of people. Out of all the places I've lived (New York, Virginia, and Texas) I feel the people in Virginia are the most level-headed people, I guess because it's the border between the two demographics we were talking about. Maybe some of this has to do with the fact that I was younger in Virginia and maybe hadn't grown up enough to see the bad in people, but I was even younger in New York (although I was born in Virginia, I moved to New York 3 weeks later) and I visit Virginia frequently to see family. Heck, I'm there right now.

But yeah, it's kind of funny, most people in Texas wish California would slide off into the ocean.

California isn't monolithic. They're the people who passed Prop 8 at the same time they elected the current president.

Can't have effective us-vs-them fear-based politics if people stop demonizing the 'them'.

lidnariq wrote:California isn't monolithic. They're the people who passed Prop 8 at the same time they elected the current president.

That's odd... (I don't live there, so I don't know how it is.) I wish they had what had what/who they were supporting in those examples reversed. I don't know why people act like you can only be far left or far right in regards to politics. I think the best is in the middle, which is why I'm not too thrilled with either presidential candidate (and many others).

Kind of irrelevant, but what really grinds my gears is that the same people who are talking about clean energy are against using nuclear power. Where do you think it's going to come from? Windmills and solar panels need to be able to store their energy when they're not being powered, and they don't generate a whole lot of power to begin with. Windmills also cost a lot of money to make and put up, and solar panels often need to be replaced, which also costs money and requires maintenance. I love the whole push for electric cars. They don't produce pollution, but the coal factories that power them sure as hell do. Coal is even more pollutant than gasoline.

lidnariq wrote:Can't have effective us-vs-them fear-based politics if people stop demonizing the 'them'.

What? Are people starting to stop demonizing the term "them"? I don't think that's happening where I live, unless you're saying I'm the one demonizing the people in the same state I live in. They're not all bad, but I've lived in Texas for 7 years, and I'll tell you they're not all good either.

I like how this has turned into a political debate. Luckily, this is actually a debate, unlike any of the political debates I've seen on TV that are more like arguments than anything else. At least they make for some good YTP videos.

Espozo wrote:what really grinds my gears is that the same people who are talking about clean energy are against using nuclear power. Where do you think it's going to come from? Windmills and solar panels need to be able to store their energy when they're not being powered

Those opposed to use of fossil or nuclear power propose several solutions:

• Insolation (and thus PV supply) peaks before air conditioning demand peaks. But the peaks and troughs of solar thermal are somewhat flatter.
• For storage longer than a day, use spare power to pump water into a reservoir, then run a generator to get power back out during calm nights.
• Biodiesel from algae oil. This is the route that the fictional universe of my video games has taken.
• Use less energy in the first place. Use sun instead of indoor lighting during daytime. Switch from power-gulping incandescent lights, Pentium 4 CPUs, and CRT monitors to power-sipping LED lights, Atom CPUs, and LED-lit LCD monitors.
• Use less energy for transport. Instead of cars, use bicycles and buses with bike racks, and compensate by designing cities to be more walkable. To accommodate workers who give up a car entirely, impose an energy security tax on employers that expect employees to commute when buses do not run, such as at night, on Sundays, and on major holidays.

Espozo wrote:Windmills also cost a lot of money to make and put up, and solar panels often need to be replaced, which also costs money and requires maintenance.

The same is true of fossil fuel plants.

Espozo wrote: I love the whole push for electric cars. They don't produce pollution, but the coal factories that power them sure as hell do. Coal is even more pollutant than gasoline.

Even when measured in emissions per mile/kilometre? Electric vehicles have at least two advantages over conventional fossil vehicles.

• The prime mover, the engine that burns fuel, doesn't need to move around with each vehicle. This allows making it more efficient for scale and moving the emissions out of the city where they can be scrubbed in one place.
• The drivetrain is much simpler. The wheels of a vehicle run at highly varying RPM, but fossil engines like to run at a fixed RPM. To make the two meet requires a mechanically complex transmission. Electric motors, on the other hand, can more efficiently vary their speed. That's why modern diesel locomotives use a fossil-electric transmission, where the fossil engine just feeds a generator. And both automobiles and locomotives have begun to incorporate energy storage in the middle to allow the engine to be made even simpler RPM-wise.

I think we have a social responsibility to represent alternative means of power generation in the games we make. The stigma against nuclear power, and obscurity of other clean forms of energy are a big problem to overcome, and it's not going to change itself if you allow yourself to just take the "default" choice dictated by your cultural biases. Have you consider putting a hydroelectric dam in your game? What if instead of that gas-pump cutscene there was a minigame to generate electricity with a pedal operated dynamo? We owe it to ourselves to try to overcome these issues when we're making the choices that go into our games.

Way ahead of you dude. I've been incorporating biofuel into my universe bible since 2008.