nesdev.org

Bregalad wrote:any game design should come with its game engine, instead of coming with a crappy hack of an exising game engine.

Then why did so many commercial PC game developers license Id's Doom, Quake, Quake III, and Doom 3 engines? The engine of Valve's Half-Life was the equivalent of a heavy asm-hack on the Quake engine.

People having the potential of making a game from scratch must have the potential to create a game engine from scratch.

Not everybody has every skill. Some people specialize in programming; others specialize in art; others specialize in writing scripts; others specialize in composing music.

Then why did so many commercial PC game developers license Id's Doom, Quake, Quake III, and Doom 3 engines? The engine of Valve's Half-Life was the equivalent of a heavy asm-hack on the Quake engine.

Yes, I've heard of that too, but that really is exactly the type of games I'm not interested in at all, to keep polite. Such games aren't really created from much art (unlike most manga/anime style based games), but just mainly from gameplay (at lest I belive so, even if I'm not a specialist of that genre). So yeah, I'm rather against those teachnique regardless if this is commercial or not.

Not everybody has every skill. Some people specialize in programming; others specialize in art; others specialize in writing scripts; others specialize in composing music.

I belive you're right, but funnily I've been somewhat involved and a lot interested in all four domains you said at least in my imagination, if not concretely. Even if I'd like to be a pro everywhere, I'm not, but I've been more or less involved in all those categories. Gegardless, somewhat who seriously lack any skill in one particular domain could just team up with a friend that doesn't, while this is a lot easier to say than to do, because in a team everyone have to be satisfacted by the work of the other and that is hard to have thigs happen fine.

It seems like you just dislike ROM hacking, Bregalad.

I mean... it sounds like you're saying that anyone who can't make a full game on their own shouldn't be doing any kind of game modification. Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, but I can't really make out any other logical path out of what you've been saying.


It also sounds like you're not happy with anything that has been reused or rehashed. In which case I have to wonder just how many NES games you have problems with... since many companies reused bits and pieces from older games in their newer games. Several Capcom games use the same music engine -- the NES Final Fantasy series has the same map decompression with slight modifications -- Megaman graphics have been recycled for years -- etc, etc, etc.

In fact... if you restrict yourself to only games which are 100% original in content -- you'll probably cut out a good 70 or 80% of games out there (possibly more).


But lastly -- let's not forget that this is a ROM hack and not a homebrew. There's a big difference... and holding one up to the expectations of the other isn't fair to either of them. It's like comparing apples to oranges.


That point aside -- I wonder if you actually played DXOII, or if you just glanced at it. The fact that you knocked the graphics really made me double-take, as they're some of the best graphics I've ever seen. The music sets the mood extremely well and suits the game perfectly (it's much darker than the original FF). Sure the quality of some of the songs could be a little better -- but FF1's music engine was pretty craptastic. Complaining about a lack of animated battle sprites seemed rather, well, silly. When you consider that most traditional RPGs of the era didn't have ANY battle sprites (let alone anything that animated)... in fact Final Fantasy is the only series I can think of offhand that has them. LP, DDS, DW -- they got nothing. It's almost like you're grasping at straws for things not to like about the game.

It also sounds like you're not happy with anything that has been reused or rehashed. In which case I have to wonder just how many NES games you have problems with... since many companies reused bits and pieces from older games in their newer games. Several Capcom games use the same music engine -- the NES Final Fantasy series has the same map decompression with slight modifications -- Megaman graphics have been recycled for years -- etc, etc, etc.

Of course so, but that's not what I meant.
There is a big difference between use something code you made earlier again to save you stupid waste of time and use something you found made by someone that didn't exept you to pick his programms and modify all you can do to get results. It's not a bad idea to inspire, even strongly, your game engine on an existing one, but it isn't a very good idea to modyfy an existing game engine to get a brand new game without having the full documented source of it, because you may be restricted to things you didn't want to and placing idiot limits to your creativity, that wouldn't exist if you coded your own game engine, even based on any existing one.

That point aside -- I wonder if you actually played DXOII, or if you just glanced at it.

Yes, I just glanced at it for about twenty minutes like you said. I didn't really involve myself in the story nor in the gameplay, because I had trouble doing so. When complaining about the graphics, I was actually complaning about the lack of any animation, and when complaining about the music, I was especially complaining about the victory music that was incredibly depressing (I even remember it so it was depressing). And yes, some RPGs doesn't display the characters at all in battle wich isn't very good either, but at least they were no static hero.

But lastly -- let's not forget that this is a ROM hack and not a homebrew. There's a big difference... and holding one up to the expectations of the other isn't fair to either of them. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

Well, considering the work from the authors to have re-created a totally new world and sory that have absolutely nothing to do with the original Final Fantas game, the whole concept of the thing is just like homebrew, exept that they used the Final Fantasy ROM as a base, wich isn't a good idea in my opinion. See, you even see "the game" at the end of your post, proving you consider Dragon X Omega as begin a totally brand new game.

Definitely the work of authors was actually homebewing, as they recreated many thing, and not rom hacking, wich inolve doing a single or several modification to an existing game, either to improve it, to translate it or to make fun with it changing graphics and/or music.

As you stated homebrew and romhacking are two separate things, but Dragon X Omega is definitely much closer to a homebrew thing, even if it is technically a romhack, and that's just what bothers me so much.

What may bother Bregalad is that you have to own and dump a copy of the proper Square game in order to make a lawful copy of this game. Pure homebrew using an original engine may be distributed freely in its entirely on the Internet.

No, it's not the legal viewpoint that bothers me. It's just that the final product is totally flawed and limited by the fact as the artists are limited by a considerable amount of contraints they wouldn't have developping their own game engine. FF1's code is supposed to run FF1, and DW's code is supposed to run DW. And so on. If you're making your game, you're then supposed to make a code that runs what you want, regardless if it is more or less inspired by existing game engines, you'd still want to have your own technical customizations regardless of the game you're doing.

It's just that the final product is totally flawed and limited by the fact as the artists are limited by a considerable amount of contraints they wouldn't have developping their own game engine.

You are so obviously not a ROM hacker. Part of the fun of doing what we do is working within constraints. The same can be said of programming something with as limited power as the NES compared to say, oh, an x86 based PC.

I mean, why code for something with 2KB of RAM and a 1.79MHz CPU when you can code for something with a gigabyte of RAM and a processor speed in excess of 2GHz? You code for the NES because of the challenges it imposes, the sheer nostalgia factor of doing something with that particular machine, and just the geek factor of it all. I hack games for the exact same reasons.

If you're making your game, you're then supposed to make a code that runs what you want, regardless if it is more or less inspired by existing game engines, you'd still want to have your own technical customizations regardless of the game you're doing.

I'm not "supposed" to do anything; I do this as a (very esoteric) hobby. Please see my above points. Also, I am not a programmer; I've delved into several languages in my day, but you know what? I'd get bored so fast it was insane. My limited abilities with machine code (Myself and a fellow by the name of Gavin did the bulk of the assembly modifications in DXOII, though many others helped with specific issues) are mostly derived from the fact that I'm an electronics/computer engineer by training, so I can "grok" what the opcodes are doing at the physical level.

I am primarily a musician and a writer; Thaddeus is an artist. Taking a game and for all intents and purposes making it into something entirely different aside from the bulk of the core programming made our jobs extremely easier. For what things the FF "engine" couldn't do, for the most part, we got around. There are signifigantly more code changes than you seem to realize, and only a few were beyond trivial to implement. So I don't agree that coding an entire engine from scratch to, say, scroll the screen, generate sound waves, etc would have been easier for us. Maybe for you, and congratulations on that, but I have neither the time nor interest to become that proficient with 6502 and knowledge of the NES' architecture. I wanted to make some games; I did that.

Well, you said yourself for example that it was a pain to work with FF's sound engine. By doing your own, the only limitations would be NES hardware, and no longer the software inside the Final Fantasy cartridge.
For example if you wish to have one dialog box show right after another to have a longer text, you cannot, just because FF engine don't handle that, and because Square's programmers didn't need that feature when first developping FF and because that was easier for them to not handle that feature.
Now, if you wish to have a longer text, you'll be forced to cut it in a shorter one, or to try to trick something in the ROM to bypass this, wich is obviously very hard, as opposed as making your own game engine, that is, once you master the NES and coding techniques for it, not so hard.
I like coding for a limited system mainly because that doesn't really matter how powerfull a system is to get good games, because I like starting to programm games just like more experienced programmers started, and beacuse of the "geek factor", as you mentioned.

I would understand you use an existing engine beacuse you love the original game or something, but the fact to be limited to what the engine limited the original game ruin the whole thing. And if you said yourself you make a game, then you call yourself a homebrewer and not just a rom hacker.
I've actually hacked FF1 for fun back then, but I did just make fun with it : Having the music unchanged when you enter in menu, and totally re-arranged the menu, along some other details. I've never published anything because I didn't feel so and the whole thing was corny...

Well, you said yourself for example that it was a pain to work with FF's sound engine. By doing your own, the only limitations would be NES hardware, and no longer the software inside the Final Fantasy cartridge.

Again, I worked with the limitations, and I had a lot of fun doing it. Simply because my original music didn't translate so well on the NES was to be expected. Also, there are damn few ROM hacks that exist that even attempt to create new, coherent music (I was actually one of the first people to hack a soundtrack in the first DXO, back when most said it was "impossible"), so that in itself is somewhat unique.

For example if you wish to have one dialog box show right after another to have a longer text, you cannot, just because FF engine don't handle that, and because Square's programmers didn't need that feature when first developping FF and because that was easier for them to not handle that feature.
Now, if you wish to have a longer text, you'll be forced to cut it in a shorter one, or to try to trick something in the ROM to bypass this, wich is obviously very hard, as opposed as making your own game engine, that is, once you master the NES and coding techniques for it, not so hard.

Again, I worked with it. And according to the 80+ emails I've recieved regarding the game, the story turned out pretty well, so I overcame my limitations. :p

I would understand you use an existing engine beacuse you love the original game or something, but the fact to be limited to what the engine limited the original game ruin the whole thing. And if you said yourself you make a game, then you call yourself a homebrewer and not just a rom hacker.

Oh, I love Final Fantasy, but our intent from the beginning was to make it as unlike Final Fantasy as possible (It emulated Dragon Quest/Warrior in a lot of ways). And I think this is your primary problem with our hack, is that it's not like FF. This, as I said, was of primary importance to us. And yes, we did make a new game, for the following reasons:

All dialouge was rewritten, the entire sound track was rescored, all level designs were done from scratch, all the quests are entirely different, the statistics of the enemies/weapons/armors were all done from the ground up, the gameplay itself is fundamentally altered due to only have one hero ala Dragon Warrior, there are new items with different functions, every last pixel of graphics were redone, etc, etc, etc.

How you can even say this isn't a different game is beyond me; that's like saying Half Life and Quake 1 are the same game, or Doom 3 and Quake 4. The underlying engine is the same, and yet the games themselves are totally different from just about every point you look at them.

But anyway, I'm through with this; this thread has dived into a horrible argument based on semantics.

Bregalad wrote:No, it's not the legal viewpoint that bothers me. It's just that the final product is totally flawed and limited by the fact as the artists are limited by a considerable amount of contraints they wouldn't have developping their own game engine.

As Sliver X pointed out, the final product is also limited by the fact that it runs on an 8-bit microcomputer. You're not going to make a haiku that has != 17 syllables or a sonnet that has != 140. Sometimes the limitations don't restrict the vision; they guide it.

If you're making your game, you're then supposed to make a code that runs what you want, regardless if it is more or less inspired by existing game engines, you'd still want to have your own technical customizations regardless of the game you're doing.

Have you seen the kinds of technical customizations that Lunar Magic users have added to Super Mario World? New block types and new sprite types are shipped as source code, assembled using x816 or ca65, and inserted into the program.

Sometimes the limitations don't restrict the vision; they guide it.

Well, I think you're very right here. However, this is a shame to have some limitations such as be forced to start in the middle of nowhere on the world map. It worked fine with FF because "the 4 light varriors came from nowhere", but I doubt that'll work twice.

How you can even say this isn't a different game is beyond me

I didn't say that at all, I just say you were very limited in your design because of the limits of what romhacking can do, wich basically doesn't goal create game but modify existing ones. So DXO2 has been designed like a homebrew game and realised as a romhacking ending up something weirdly out of standards.

I was actually one of the first people to hack a soundtrack in the first DXO, back when most said it was "impossible"

Hey, they are so bad at thinking ! A soundtrack is almost as easy to hack than text or graphics. Of course, hacking it proprely is another story.

Bregalad wrote:There is a big difference between use something code you made earlier again to save you stupid waste of time and use something you found made by someone that didn't exept you to pick his programms and modify all you can do to get results.

So.... recycling your own work is okay... but recycling someone else's work isn't? Since you claim that this isn't a legal concern, perhaps you feel it's a moral one?

But if it were a moral objection -- I'd think you'd have the same problem with any ROM hack. I'm still not sure exactly what your beef is here.

And yes, some RPGs doesn't display the characters at all in battle wich isn't very good either, but at least they were no static hero.

So now the problem isn't that it lacks graphics... it's that it has too many? You're making no sense.

The battle backdrops in FF never animated, neither did any of the enemies, yet you don't seem to have any problem with them. Why is it that the hero of all things is the only thing that you have a beef with?

Well, considering the work from the authors to have re-created a totally new world and sory that have absolutely nothing to do with the original Final Fantas game, the whole concept of the thing is just like homebrew, exept that they used the Final Fantasy ROM as a base, wich isn't a good idea in my opinion.

You basically summerized the definition of "ROM hack" and then said it isn't a good idea. Just because DXOII took it a bit further than most... it's like you're making accomplishment out to be a flaw.

Definitely the work of authors was actually homebewing, as they recreated many thing, and not rom hacking,

The thing here is... they stuck with the one thing that makes it a ROM hack: modifying an existing ROM.

wich inolve doing a single or several modification to an existing game, either to improve it, to translate it or to make fun with it changing graphics and/or music.

Translations and Facelifts are only two types of hacks. There are hundreds and hundreds of ROM hacks which do more than simple 'improvements' and graphics changes. Many change maps, abilities, plotlines, etc. Those type of hacks all morph the original game into a new kind of game. DXOII is the same thing -- it just does a little more than most.

As you stated homebrew and romhacking are two separate things, but Dragon X Omega is definitely much closer to a homebrew thing

I guess I just don't see how you can say that. Either you don't have a lot of experience with ROM hacks that aren't more than graphics hacks, or you simply just have a beef with them on principle.

99% of people that turn to ROM hacking do so with aspirations of making a "new game using XXXX's engine". I can't tell you how many times I've heard that before. To call them homebrewers would leave the ROM hacking world awfully small and empty.

And if you said yourself you make a game, then you call yourself a homebrewer and not just a rom hacker.

Creating a game from scratch = homebrew
Creating a game from an existing game = game modification = ROM hacking

Nobody would call DXOII a homebrew. At least, no one who knew what they were talking about.

I just say you were very limited in your design because of the limits of what romhacking can do, wich basically doesn't goal create game but modify existing ones.

Perfect example. You're describing the ROM hacking process to a T here, but then...

So DXO2 has been designed like a homebrew game

... turning around and calling it 'like a homebrew'.

DXOII, believe it or not, was designed to be a ROM hack. From day 1. It was not designed to be a homebrew -- I don't know where you're getting that from, but it's clouding your judgement in a big way.

and realised as a romhacking ending up something weirdly out of standards.

I wouldn't say it's weird -- it certianly is above most ROM hacking standards. But that's not all that weird. There are some other very good, very thorough hacks out there... such as Super Metroid Redesign, Super Demo World, Rockman 2 Exile, Mario Adventure, and I'm sure countless others.

Remember, ROM hacking isn't just facelifting and translations. It's about game modification.

FF1's code is supposed to run FF1, and DW's code is supposed to run DW. And so on. If you're making your game, you're then supposed to make a code that runs what you want, regardless if it is more or less inspired by existing game engines, you'd still want to have your own technical customizations regardless of the game you're doing.

Such 'technical customizations' you're referring to are often called 'asm hacks' in the ROM hacking world, and DXOII has several.


Could DXOII be better if it was written from scratch (homebrew) instead of being a hack of FF1? Absolutely. I don't think even Sliv or Thadd will disagree with you here.

But was DXOII written from scratch? Is it a homebrew? Absolutely not -- stop comparing it to one, stop looking at what it could be if it was one, and look at it for what it is: a very advanced, unique, and thorough ROM hack.

Does that mean that homebrews are better than ROM hacks? Apparently you seem to think so, however many (including myself) would argue. They're both different art forms, and they both produce different kinds of products.

You don't seem to have a problem with someone making a NES homebrew. Though if your logic were consistent you would. You claim giving yourself unneccesary limitations makes for a worse game -- yet making a game for an NES forces all sorts of unnecessary limitations when compared to something like PC game dev.


Would you really tell a nesdev'er his game is no good because it could be much better if it was made for PC? Of course not.... so why are you telling these ROM hackers that their game is no good because it could be much better if it was a homebrew?

So.... recycling your own work is okay... but recycling someone else's work isn't? Since you claim that this isn't a legal concern, perhaps you feel it's a moral one?

But if it were a moral objection -- I'd think you'd have the same problem with any ROM hack. I'm still not sure exactly what your beef is here.

It's mainly a practice objection. It is much more handfull to allow you game to be suited to anything than to just change data from something else.

The battle backdrops in FF never animated, neither did any of the enemies, yet you don't seem to have any problem with them. Why is it that the hero of all things is the only thing that you have a beef with?

Because protagonits are the main point of any game. What would be Mario without Mario ? What would be Mega Man without Mega Man ? What would be Dragon Warrior without the descendant of Erdrick/Loto or whathever you call him ? What would be Final Fantasy without the Fighter/Thief/Black Belt/Black Mage/White Mage/Red Mage character set ?

PS : I'm gotta love the expression "have a beef with", lol !

DXOII, believe it or not, was designed to be a ROM hack. From day 1. It was not designed to be a homebrew -- I don't know where you're getting that from, but it's clouding your judgement in a big way.

It's from that the game has nothing to do with FF1 in its pure design, so I just don't see why it would have to be a romhack of FF1 exept if it is the total unability from the developpers to code for the NES, and if so they're unable to modify FF1's code to get their own wishes, too (wich obviously wasn't the case with DXO2). So if they know how to understand and modify partrs of FF1, they can understand and mimic FF1's engine on their own, allowing flexible game design.

But was DXOII written from scratch? Is it a homebrew? Absolutely not -- stop comparing it to one, stop looking at what it could be if it was one, and look at it for what it is: a very advanced, unique, and thorough ROM hack.

Story, graphics and music are obviously written from scratch. You just found yourself some common points that were unique to FF1 such as the "begin in the middle of nowhere without any explaination" and the music change in the menu.

You don't seem to have a problem with someone making a NES homebrew. Though if your logic were consistent you would. You claim giving yourself unneccesary limitations makes for a worse game -- yet making a game for an NES forces all sorts of unnecessary limitations when compared to something like PC game dev.

The limitations aren't useless, acually you're forced to deal with them if you want to ever run on a NES.
And I don't think making a modern PC game is better than doing a NES game - just different. Now, making your own game engine is better than haking an existing one, regardless if it is PC, NES or anything.

Hahaha! You guys are giving Bregalad such a hard time! I think I understand what he means though, and for most part I agree with him.

I agree that extensive hacks are so much trouble that it'd be better to just start a game from scratch. That's a programmer's perspective though, and many hackers wouldn't have the knowledge or the will to do it all.

I, personally, am not a big fan of ROM hacking. I respect their work and am constantly amazed by the ammount of work they put into understanding exactly how a game works in order to be able to modify it so extensively. I'd never put myself through this though, and would rather put all my efforts into making something 100% mine.

I also have a very tough policy on reuse of things I didn't make. I don't use anything unless I completely understand it, and, most of the time, I'd rather make my own version of things than spend a whole lot of time figuring out why someone did something the way they did.

The bottomline is Bregalad has a valid point: as far as he is concerned, ROM hacking is not the most rewarding experience. I agree with him. What's not right is criticizing people who do find ROM hacking entertaining and rewarding (I don't know if he did, I didn't read the whole thread).

In the end, it's all a matter of personal choice. If you want to code a whole game, and have the knowledge to do so, go for it. If instead you feel like modifying an existent game, and have the patience to do so, that's fine too (unless you are concerned about legal matters, of course). The important thing is that we respect each other's choices.

Bregalad wrote:It's mainly a practice objection. It is much more handfull to allow you game to be suited to anything than to just change data from something else.

I'm not sure I understand. "much more handfull"?

Because protagonits are the main point of any game. What would be Mario without Mario ? What would be Mega Man without Mega Man ? What would be Dragon Warrior without the descendant of Erdrick/Loto or whathever you call him ? What would be Final Fantasy without the Fighter/Thief/Black Belt/Black Mage/White Mage/Red Mage character set ?

DXOII has a protagonist: Sargon. You see more images of him than you see of the main characters in the early DW games.

I'm just baffled trying to understand how you think no graphics are better than graphics that don't animate. Before, it's almost as if you were saying graphics are bad unless they animate -- which is why I brought up the other examples of stationary graphics.

Story, graphics and music are obviously written from scratch.

As is the case with 99% of ROM hacks. (well maybe not the music)

Of course hacks are going to have original content -- but the game itself is not written from scratch. "From scratch" meaning you start with nothing and build everything up yourself. DXOII does not do that. Yes some parts of it are original, but that does not mean the game was made from scratch.

You just found yourself some common points that were unique to FF1 such as the "begin in the middle of nowhere without any explaination" and the music change in the menu.

Right -- because it's a ROM hack, it shares many aspects with the original game. This is the case with 100% of ROM hacks.

Above two quotes pretty much support my point that DXOII is a ROM hack and not a homebrew.

The limitations aren't useless, acually you're forced to deal with them if you want to ever run on a NES.

You totally missed the point of my analogy.

You're basically saying: "What's the point of doing a ROM hack when you can just homebrew"

To put that in perspective, I'm saying: "What's the point of making an NES homebrew when you can make a PC homebrew?"

Now --- I'm not saying it's useless to make an NES homebrew. I see the appeal. However, I'm just trying to put this in perspective.

I'm certain almost every reason you can come up with for choosing to make a NES homebrew over a PC homebrew can apply equally to a ROM hacker choosing to hack a game rather than write one from scratch.

Example:

- ROM hackers have more limitations than NES homebrewers.
- NES homebrewers have more limitations than PC homebrewers

Come up with a few of your own reasons why someone might want to make an NES game instead of a PC game... then look at how that same reason applies to why someone might want to make a ROM hack instead of an NES homebrew.

And I don't think making a modern PC game is better than doing a NES game - just different.

EXACTLY

I agree 100%

So why do you think NES homebrews are better than ROM hacks? They're not -- they're just different.

I think the reason you think homebrews are better is because you're treating them like they're the same thing.

Now, making your own game engine is better than haking an existing one, regardless if it is PC, NES or anything.

As has already been brought up -- game companies recycle old code (and even sell their code to other companies) all the time. I'm even sure that this was fairly common in NES days.


Regardless... I guess this statement pretty much just sums up that you generally dislike all ROM hacks. Since you're taking the basic foundation of ROM hacking and saying it's the worse way to do things.

I guess you just don't appreciate it. *shrugs*



Note regarding the following replies: I don't necessarily believe what I'm saying here, I'm just falling back on the whole NES<->PC homebrew analogy, since I think it sums up my stance quite well.

tokumaru wrote:I agree that extensive hacks are so much trouble that it'd be better to just start a game from scratch.

Making a NES game from scratch is so much trouble that it'd be better to just start a PC game from scratch.

I respect their work and am constantly amazed by the ammount of work they put into understanding exactly how a game works in order to be able to modify it so extensively. I'd never put myself through this though, and would rather put all my efforts into making something 100% mine.

I respect NES homebrewer's work and am constantly amazed by the amount of work they put into understanding exactly how the NES works in order to be able to use it so extensively. I'd never put myself through that though, and would rather put all my efforts into making a game for a system more people have access to and has fewer restrictions.