Mode 5 colour limitations?

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iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Joe wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:20 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:32 amIsn't fixing this on such HDTVs possibly just a matter of turning on/off certain crappy display options/modes
You can't turn off the deinterlacer when the input is interlaced. And, at least in my experience, most TVs have no settings to control the deinterlacer.
Yeah, I actually have little idea of what you guys are talking about regarding the whole Mode 5 and interlaced stuff to be honest, so I was just checking--just in case. lol
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

kulor wrote: Sat Apr 30, 2022 11:43 pm http://kulor.arnoldascher.com/shmup49.gif
By the way, I just noticed that a cool little side effect and visual effect of using high-res on the backgrounds with normal-res on the sprites in your vertical shump, which is the fact that it subtly makes it seem like the sprites are on a higher plane of perspective than the backgrounds, which totally makes sense in this context. A nice little freebie of this mode there. And one I'll keep in mind when thinking about my own ideas for whatever game(s) I might want to make using Mode 5 (especially around creating the illusion of parallax and 3D depth) :D

Honestly, why in the living Christ did almost no SNES developers back in the day ever use this mode (and now too), even if just for some bonus mini game stages or in a single level or whatever (but more than just doing some high-res text or a menu at the very least)?

PS. I have a small idea for your shmup: Would it be possible to draw say an 8px opaque row at either the top or bottom of the screen for a HUD bar that you could do in the same high-res as the rest of the game using the main high-colour background layer? I think that would both allow the HUD to be in the same resolution as the rest of the background, go across the full screen, and also help sell that faux 3D depth effect I just mentioned above even more, because then only the player and enemies and stuff would be in low-res (the stuff that's higher up in depth as it were). And I know it cuts off a tiny bit of the view and isn't quite a cool as having the HUD floating on top of the game, but you could put it at the bottom of the screen and keep it small in height so as not to take up too much of view, a bit like the HUD bar in Gradious/Parodius for example, and no one would even notice the view is slightly smaller because HUDs like that are so typical for shmups. I think that subtle, almost subliminal extra 3D depth effect by only having the actual ships and bullets and stuff be in low-res, or "higher up" towards the camera as it were hence all the pixels being slightly larger, would be a small net positive. Just a thought, but it's all good either way. Hope that actually makes sense.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Sun May 01, 2022 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dougeff
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by dougeff »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:27 am
Joe wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:20 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:32 amIsn't fixing this on such HDTVs possibly just a matter of turning on/off certain crappy display options/modes
You can't turn off the deinterlacer when the input is interlaced. And, at least in my experience, most TVs have no settings to control the deinterlacer.
Yeah, I actually have little idea of what you guys are talking about regarding the whole Mode 5 and interlaced stuff to be honest, so I was just checking--just in case. lol
I'm no expert, but I believe it works like this. First it draws every even horizontal line to the screen, then in the next frame it draws every odd line. In Mode 5/6, it draws one of those a half pixel lower than the other frame.

So, while the PPU can't really draw 448 scanlines, it fakes it by doing 224 one frame and 224 another frame.
where someone tries to convince me that now Mode 6 high-res column scrolling is worthless too
Yes. I am actually trying to discourage you from using mode 6, but not because it's "worthless", but for the reason I stated, that it has only 1 layer. You have to weigh the options and choose which best suits the kind of game you want to make.


If you can make the same visual effect by swapping tiles, in a mode that has more layers, I would prefer that method.
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iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

dougeff wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:51 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:27 am
Joe wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 10:20 am
You can't turn off the deinterlacer when the input is interlaced. And, at least in my experience, most TVs have no settings to control the deinterlacer.
Yeah, I actually have little idea of what you guys are talking about regarding the whole Mode 5 and interlaced stuff to be honest, so I was just checking--just in case. lol
I'm no expert, but I believe it works like this. First it draws every even horizontal line to the screen, then in the next frame it draws every odd line. In Mode 5/6, it draws one of those a half pixel lower than the other frame.

So, while the PPU can't really draw 448 scanlines, it fakes it by doing 224 one frame and 224 another frame.
where someone tries to convince me that now Mode 6 high-res column scrolling is worthless too
Yes. I am actually trying to discourage you from using mode 6, but not because it's "worthless", but for the reason I stated, that it has only 1 layer. You have to weigh the options and choose which best suits the kind of game you want to make.
Yeah, for using it just in one level or a boss fight or whatever in your high-res shump, I don't see only having one layer as a negative so long as you can do some creative design to mitigate that. So that's why I suggested the idea of doing a large vertically undulating boss using the HIGH RES background in Mode 6 (which can techincally also do line-scrolling to wobble in both directions at once, I think), alongside some trickery with sprites to create a faux space background of stars (as in the Super Aleste examples). I mean, I don't think doing a whole game in this mode makes sense, due to only having one layer like you said, but for a cool set-piece or whatever, absolutely. Of course, you're going to have to come up with a boss or set-piece that justifies Mode 6 over any other Mode, but that's kinda my point: The Mode is there and it does something unique, so it would be cool for someone to finally find a way to use it that looks genuinely cool. I mean, I just plucked the boss idea out of thin air, but, with hours of thinking about it, I'm sure you could come up with many ways it could be used for a whole bunch of cool things, which, again, no other layer can do in high-res. Mode 6 is the ONLY layer that can column scroll in HIGH-RES and high-colour--I think it would be a shame of it to continue to go ignored, especially when you've already jumping head first into doing high-res in your shmup anyway. :)

I mean, I can tell you this, I'm def gonna use Mode 6 for something in one of my games--and hopefully something that makes people go "Now I get why Mode 6 isn't totally worthless--that's just cool!". LOL
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

PS. Here's a random cool use I thought about the other day for Mode 6's unique high-res and high-colour column scrolling ability:

https://youtu.be/kIXNpePYzZU?t=28

You could do a really cool version of The Matrix screen! :D

AND it uses it for bloody high-res text just like almost every other SNES game that's used high-res in any capacity. Haha

Can't do it in that high a resolution and with so many shades of green overall on Genesis--ha!

PPS. I just realized there's a potential way I can actually use this one of my SNES game ideas that would totally make sense in context! Nope, it's not the idea below.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Sun May 01, 2022 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

OK, here's an idea for a shmup boss set-piece using Mode 6: You fly into an area that's full of vertically scrolling stars in the background (done with normal sprites like in the Super Aleste example I posted previously), then high-res and high-colour Matrix-like text starts slowly scrolling down the screen above the layer of stars and different speeds per column of text, then a bunch of the letters break off (using normal sprites here), while the others still using the background layer scroll off the screen, and the sprite letters move around quickly before coming together to form the face of a large Star Fox Andros-like head made up of a bunch of the letters, before switching back into the high-res version of the head using the background as a single object. And then the head slowly flies around and stuff, shooting things at you, and sometimes parts of it scroll up and down at different speeds from the rest of the face just for a cool undulation visual effect, and when you shoot it parts fly off (done by the lower res sprites) until there's little of the face left and then it explodes into a mix of some vertically scrolling high-res letters and a bunch of low-re sprite letters that fly off in random directions (subtle sense of 3D depth here too due to two different res letter types), and so on. . . .

You get the idea--a random idea of how to use Mode 6 that I came up with literally just now. And the benefit of using Mode 6 here over any other mode is that those complex and detailed Japanese letters will be in much higher resolution than a normal SNES game, so they will just look really nice, both when scrolling down the screen and when used to form the boss head, and they can have a cool column scrolling effect in high-res and high-colour because ONLY Mode 6 allows this in both high-res and high colour.

You could even go further with everything too, depending on how fast you can switch background modes in and out on SNES, and switch to a Mode 7 version of the head at some points for a moment, Zoom it right into the screen then zoom back out, then switch back to the high-res version of the head at the normal size again. Now, the switch isn't going to be perfect because the high-res head and Mode 7 head versions are not at the same pixel resolution even though the head itself would be the same size onscreen, but, for the overall effect it would achieve, it would be well worth the split second where the two versions switch out and don't look exactly the same imo.

Could even work well if you draw it literally like flat-shaded polygons and totally mimic Star Fox Andros (maybe the letters come together as a head and then "morph" across somehow into a metal polygon Andros look), and the higher res here will sell that polygon look further too, especially if you combine it with the switching to Mode 7 and zooming out at times so it's all a bit faux 3D.

I think that's a kinda cool albeit random boss idea.

It's all just a thought exercise to see how and why Mode 6 could be used. Possibly inspired slightly by this: https://youtu.be/X7VjoW0wANQ?t=1904
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kulor
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by kulor »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:05 am By the way, if you're doing a high-res vertical shmup, Mode 6 should absolutely be on your radar.
Well, not to turn around and do the same thing for mode 6 that others were doing for mode 5 earlier, but I've struggled to think of any situations where that would be the best graphics mode to use. In order for that mode to make sense, it would have to be a situation where...
  1. You need OPT
  2. You wouldn't benefit from having more layers
  3. You're not scrolling fast
With your Matrix idea, for example, I think mode 2 would be more suitable because then you could have two layers of the Matrix effect, maybe some additive blending to make it look even nicer, and that would be a bigger benefit than having the higher resolution for some slightly more crisp looking text. In most situations where I'd consider using mode 6, it'd be more tempting to just find a way to use mode 5 instead so I can get 2 layers.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

kulor wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 10:56 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun May 01, 2022 9:05 am By the way, if you're doing a high-res vertical shmup, Mode 6 should absolutely be on your radar.
Well, not to turn around and do the same thing for mode 6 that others were doing for mode 5 earlier, but I've struggled to think of any situations where that would be the best graphics mode to use. In order for that mode to make sense, it would have to be a situation where...
  1. You need OPT
  2. You wouldn't benefit from having more layers
  3. You're not scrolling fast
With your Matrix idea, for example, I think mode 2 would be more suitable because then you could have two layers of the Matrix effect, maybe some additive blending to make it look even nicer, and that would be a bigger benefit than having the higher resolution for some slightly more crisp looking text. In most situations where I'd consider using mode 6, it'd be more tempting to just find a way to use mode 5 instead so I can get 2 layers.
I think there's one thing all you guys keep ignoring when I talk about these things from my perspective as the guy who's creating the thread and asking the question, or making a suggestion such as using Mode 6 as I did: Part of my motivation is to do stuff on SNES that's simply impossible on Genesis because then I get to rub it in all the Genesis fanboy faces whenever they bug me.

A Mode 2 version of that whole Matrix plus boss scene does basically nothing of note that the Genesis can't just do too. But Genesis can't do any of it at 512x448. So, while doing that Matrix effect in Mode 6 might only represent a small jump, it still does it a little bit better than any other mode. Also, it's the only background mode no one has ever used (that I'm aware of), and that alone makes me want to use it. With it being a unique mode and being a little better than the other modes for the effect, along with the whole pooing on Genesis thing, it kills two birds with one stone--and I'd be more than happy with that.

Are you understanding where I'm coming from here?

But, of course, no one has to use Mode 6 in their game if they don't want to--I'd be happy to be able to say I was the first person to use Mode 6 in a SNES game (that I'm aware of). But I was just trying to kill a couple of birds with one stone again. ;-)
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kulor
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by kulor »

That's just the thing, isn't it? Sure, you could do the effect in mode 6 and then tell Sega fans "haha you can't do this!!", but at what cost? Mode 6 only has one layer, and if you're doing OPT (which, you definitely are in mode 6, otherwise you'd just use mode 5 and get an extra layer) you can't really do raster splits to fake having more layers, so it's really limiting. I don't think the effect would end up looking as nice as if you just did it in mode 2 instead. And for me, having a visually better effect is much more important than having an effect that proves some kind of console war point, but doesn't actually look as nice. Now, I'm not going to say there's absolutely no use for the mode and it's a waste of chip die, but I haven't thought of a situation where it seems like it's the clear choice.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:46 pm A Mode 2 version of that whole Matrix plus boss scene does absolutely nothing the Genesis can't just do too.
That's not true though, not with the effect as I described it. For one, SNES OPT works on 8-pixel columns; Genesis column scrolling works on 16-pixel columns. Two, the Genesis would struggle to do the effect with additive blending, like I said. So even in mode 2, you can do your Matrix effect and get your console war point across too.
I mean they'll probably still whinge about the resolution being low and the music being muffled and the colors being "off" or whatever, but that's gonna happen no matter what you do.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

kulor wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:14 pm That's just the thing, isn't it? Sure, you could do the effect in mode 6 and then tell Sega fans "haha you can't do this!!", but at what cost? Mode 6 only has one layer, and if you're doing OPT (which, you definitely are in mode 6, otherwise you'd just use mode 5 and get an extra layer) you can't really do raster splits to fake having more layers, so it's really limiting. I don't think the effect would end up looking as nice as if you just did it in mode 2 instead. And for me, having a visually better effect is much more important than having an effect that proves some kind of console war point, but doesn't actually look as nice. Now, I'm not going to say there's absolutely no use for the mode and it's a waste of chip die, but I haven't thought of a situation where it seems like it's the clear choice.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 12:46 pm A Mode 2 version of that whole Matrix plus boss scene does absolutely nothing the Genesis can't just do too.
That's not true though, not with the effect as I described it. For one, SNES OPT works on 8-pixel columns; Genesis column scrolling works on 16-pixel columns. Two, the Genesis would struggle to do the effect with additive blending, like I said. So even in mode 2, you can do your Matrix effect and get your console war point across too.
I mean they'll probably still whinge about the resolution being low and the music being muffled and the colors being "off" or whatever, but that's gonna happen no matter what you do.
Ah, yeah, I forgot about the better column scrolling that SNES can do when talking about this example. Now, would that also be available in Mode 6 too, just double the resolution (and I suppose smoother motion too by virtue of the smaller pixels, right)?

The thing with Mode 2 is that everything that's in it we've seen used in a SNES game already in some way, so it doesn't represent anything new or special, and certainly not as ammo in the console war imo. But no one has ever done a column scrolling effect in 512x448 on SNES (that I am aware of), and Genesis fanboys absolutely haven't see it. And none of us have ever seen either Mode 5 or Mode 6 being used to their full capacity either. Most people have barely seen any particularly impressive uses of Mode 0, which did appear in a handful of games in mostly uneventful ways.

So much of SNES remains under-utilized imo, and in Mode 6' case, just not used at all (that I'm aware of). My ultimate goal would be to use every single SNES background mode in one game, and in such a way that each use of it was patently obvious and clearly impressive for what it was. With Mode 6 it doesn't have to be any kind of Matrix text at all--but something.

Like the whole using Mode 5 argument thing, and even Mode 0 thing in general (most people really underrate Mode 0 imo), no one is going to convince me there's not a good and indeed impressive use for Mode 6 just waiting to be done and shown to the world. All we need to find is something that would totally benefit from that higher resolution (or would simply look better in it) and that absolutely requires column scrolling to sell the effect. . . .

PS. 'Sure, you could do the effect in mode 6 and then tell Sega fans "haha you can't do this!!"'

Yup, that would work for me. LOL
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon May 02, 2022 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kulor
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by kulor »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:57 pm Now, would that also be available in Mode 6 too, just double the resolution (and I suppose smoother motion too by virtue of the smaller pixels, right)?
Unfortunately not. That's where my thoughts were originally: since 8-pixel columns at that res would be the width of 4 pixels normally, it would maybe be fine enough to do vertical linescroll effects, but unfortunately the columns always work at the same size, so it's more like 16-pixel columns in mode 6.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:57 pmSo much of SNES remains under-utilized imo
Well, while you're at it, try to think of something to do with direct color mode, or horizontal OPT, 'cuz those are two other hardware features I've struggled to find any good use for.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

kulor wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:16 pm
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:57 pm Now, would that also be available in Mode 6 too, just double the resolution (and I suppose smoother motion too by virtue of the smaller pixels, right)?
Unfortunately not. That's where my thoughts were originally: since 8-pixel columns at that res would be the width of 4 pixels normally, it would maybe be fine enough to do vertical linescroll effects, but unfortunately the columns always work at the same size, so it's more like 16-pixel columns in mode 6.
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 1:57 pmSo much of SNES remains under-utilized imo
Well, while you're at it, try to think of something to do with direct color mode, or horizontal OPT, 'cuz those are two other hardware features I've struggled to find any good use for.
Ah, I see. Still, I'm happy with double the resolution alone. :)

Unfortunately, I still can't get my head around direct colour mode. However it's explained on whatever sites I've looked at, I just can't picture the layman way of just using it in a game and how that affects the overall use of palettes and how it works on the tiles and so on. Maybe you can try explaining it to me again, in baby terms, and I'll see if it finally clicks.

I have no idea what horizontal OPT is?
Myself086
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by Myself086 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:21 pm Unfortunately, I still can't get my head around direct colour mode. However it's explained on whatever sites I've looked at, I just can't picture the layman way of just using it in a game and how that affects the overall use of palettes and how it works on the tiles and so on. Maybe you can try explaining it to me again, in baby terms, and I'll see if it finally clicks.
The index that would've been used for palette is now used for direct RGB (or direct color). Meaning you can't use the palette in this mode and the choice of color is very disappointing (RGB332 but pseudo RGB443 per tile).
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 2:21 pm I have no idea what horizontal OPT is?
OPT (offset-per-tile) works both vertically and horizontally. But the horizontal part of OPT works every 8 pixels (16 in high resolution mode).
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Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by NovaSquirrel »

Horizontal OPT is good for certain kinds of screen transitions: https://youtu.be/0-C9hjCn55c?t=44
Effectively it lets you tell the SNES to ignore what data is stored for a specific column and read a different column's data instead.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Mode 5 colour limitations?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Myself086 wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 3:02 pm The index that would've been used for palette is now used for direct RGB (or direct color). Meaning you can't use the palette in this mode and the choice of color is very disappointing (RGB332 but pseudo RGB443 per tile).
Yeah, I can't think of a great use for direct colour. But, honestly, I still don't really get how it works. I know the SNES normally has up to 128 colours for the backgrounds and another separate 128 for sprites, and the background colours get divided into different palettes of different sizes depending on the background mode (usually the sprite palette is totally separate but in I think one mode it gets lumped in with the backgrounds too), but, beyond that, I don't know how those colours get arranged/applied when direct colour is used. Like, do I just have access to the full 32,768 colours (minus pure black and pure white, I think) to use as I see fit in each tile? Are tiles still 8bpp/4bpp/2bpp in this mode? Do the sprite colours get lumped in the with background colours? I don't really know any of these things, only that the direct colour mode is not a typical SNES palette as such.
Myself086 wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 3:02 pm OPT (offset-per-tile) works both vertically and horizontally. But the horizontal part of OPT works every 8 pixels (16 in high resolution mode).

So, offset-per-tile basically allows you to scroll both 8 pixel columns and/or 8 pixel rows, correct? What background mode(s) is this available in? Any caveats?

Edit: No, wait, it lets you do this per tile? So you can move any individual tile in 8 pixel increments (horizontally and/or vertically)?

Or are you basically talking about this (or something slightly different): https://youtu.be/5SBEAZIfDAg?t=206

Or maybe this: https://youtu.be/5SBEAZIfDAg?t=353

I've confused myself now. :-o
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Mon May 02, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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