turboxray wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:01 pm
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: ↑Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:58 pm
All the online documents say the Genesis can display a maximum of 80 8x8-32x32 sprites (even the total fanboy ones), just as the SNES documents say it can display 128 sprites (and apparently up to 64x64 in size, but absolutely up to 16x16 at the very least, which has been very effectively demonstrated by 93143 to be 100% true).
Well.. 'Display' is a loose term. It's from the perspective of how many entries the SAT/OAM is accessible during active display - and not as literal as it sounds. It was never in question that the SNES
can't hold 128 and display 16x16 entries from a sPPU perspective. The SNES definitely can
not show 128 6x64 sprites. And the Genesis definitely can
not show 80 32x32. Your line limit, accumulated across all scanlines - wouldn't be enough. 'Clipping' doesn't count, because then they aren't '64x64' or '32x32' intact.
Someone in the comments (or maybe the other thread), already mentioned looking at this in the perspective of 'screen coverage'. I think this is a really good metric for looking at sprites sizes vs sat/oam size - to get a round about understanding of capability. PCE for instance only has 64 entries, but it has '32x64' size as the largest. A lot of games use that size, but can you display all '32x64' on screen at the same time? The SAT can hold all of them, but again like the SNES and Genesis the line limit would prevent you from seeing all of them as-is. So technically, no. From a screen coverage perspective, the Genesis and PCE surpass the requirement - they can have
more sprite pixel data that can be shown/seen on screen. The snes in 16x16|8x8 more cannot. You have to jump to 16x16|32x32 and mostly use 32x32 cells to get there.
But, okay, here we go. I guess you're going to go about sprite multiplexing on Genesis or some other hack like that, right? And that's somehow not possible on SNES too, right? "Genesis can do a bazillion sprites!" I mean, Super Mario Kart certainly doesn't do anything remotely like that at all:
https://youtu.be/K7gWmdgXPgk?t=767
Sure, here we go. You can update the SAT entries on whatever scanline and you don't need to force blank the frame into parts like the SNES - on the Genesis. So no, it doesn't have some convoluted arbitrary limitations like the SNES. So it's actually practical and useful. It's not a hack. You literally just update an entry. And a few games use it.
Mario Kart doesn't do what I'm referring to, and doesn't have the capability that I'm referring to. I mean even the PCE can do a forced blank SAT reload like what Mario Kart is doing (and with just a two line-gap separation). Again, neither of those are the same thing.
So, it would seem that what I am saying should be technically possible: Way more than 16 64x64 objects onscreen but with lots of clipping and dropout.
Then you're NOT showing 64x64 objects, are you? It's a totally ridiculous metric you're forcible trying to justify. You're getting into the realm of bullshit.. we get enough of that from sonicretro tech site hahah
It all just sounds really blah blah blah to me: The SNES can show 128 8x8-16x16 sprites for loads more onscreen sprites total than the other consoles as standard--FACT. The SNES can show enough big sprites to cover the entire screen too--FACT. The SNES can show lots of sprites onscreen in general, in actual games during actual gameplay, and enough of them doing enough stuff to have loads of intense action going on, as perfectly demonstrated in the two examples I provided (Super Smash TV and Rendering Ranger)--FACT. The rest is really all just meaningless gibberish because some people want to pretend the Genesis can do absolutely everything the SNES can do and indeed do it all better, but it can't; it can do SOME things the SNES can do and SOME of them it can do better, while others it cannot do at all and some things it simply does worse--FACT
So, if people want to keep arguing numbers on paper and continue to try and convince all the world the Genesis is this infinite beast that just beats the SNES no matter what: 128 objects onscreen (up to 64x64 in size) >>> 80 objects onscreen (up to 32x32 in size), as per the official documentation and not counting various hacks that BOTH machines are capable of in many different ways to manipulate those numbers.
Nintendoes what Genesis doesn't--FACT.
Here's another thing the SNES can do as standard that the Genesis cannot EVER do: Four fully overlapping full background layers.
Here's something else the SNES can do as standard that the Genesis simply cannot do: Proper colour math for actual transparency on both sprites and backgrounds.
Here's one more thing the SNES can do as standard that the Genesis just can't (I've certainly never seen it even come close): Full background rotation, scaling and skewing on as many as four separate player views at once (ala Street Racer's 4-player mode).
Here's another thing the SNES does as standard that is impossible on Genesis: Max 512x448 resolution (and in-game at that).
Here's another thing the SNES does as standard that the Genesis just cannot do: Eight channels of PCM audio. It can't do surround sound either--The SNES can.
Here's yet another thing the SNES does as standard that the Genesis doesn't even manage with its pay-extra-for-it controller, never mind the 3-button meh that comes in the box: A controller with a d-pad plus six actions buttons plus a Start button plus a Select button, and in a setup that allows for a whole load of versatility in how it's used (trying intuitively strafing in Doom while turning and firing at the same time on Genesis and let's see how good that feels--Oh, wait, there is no version of Doom for the actual Genesis. Well, try it on the 32X version. . . .).
Just as the Genesis has its strengths and does some things that the SNES can't touch, the SNES has many of its own strengths and can do a bunch of things that the Genesis can't touch, and I think Genesis defenders need to get over it and just accept the SNES actually beats the Genesis sometimes and in some meaningful ways--God forbid.
It's okay for Genesis fanboys to actually admit the Genesis can and does lose sometimes--the world will not collapse.
The SNES won the console war and for many good reasons. Genesis fanboys need to get over it and stop trying to re-write the narrative thirty years too late. They lost--FACT.