Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

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TrekkiesUnite118
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

turboxray wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:41 am Everything you can do there, you can do on the SNES. And then you also have an extra BG layer in mode 1 for even more complex parallax. That's always been one of the key strengths of the SNES; mode 1.
Yep, and if you use these tricks then you don't need to use something like Mode 0 but could instead use Mode 1 and have more colors to work with.
Last edited by TrekkiesUnite118 on Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
turboxray
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by turboxray »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:18 am So all I'm going to say to this is don't flatter yourself. All that happened is you showed up in my twitter feed raging about some Genesis homebrew/beat'em up port and linked to a video of an SNES ROM Hack. I clicked the video and dug into the comments to find the ROM and saw you commenting in there. I downloaded the ROM and tried it out in an accurate emulator and simply said to you "If you're going to keep throwing this around you should probably play it in an accurate emulator or real hardware because it's a flickering mess of slowdown." YOU were the one who then decided to go "stalk" me and go back through my comments on youtube and reply to ones I made over a decade ago in other videos just to start a console war argument.
This is very accurate. This has also been my introduction to him, and as well as my experience/what I've seen.
As for knowing of your behavior around here, it's not my fault you're infamous in the homebrew communities. There's actually a lot of overlap and comradery between the various different retro homebrew communities. We all talk and communicate with each other, share demos, ideas, etc. In general though people don't really appreciate you going around and starting console wars and antagonizing other homebrew communities for simply making games and demos for systems you don't like. So that aspect of your behavior I know about just from seeing it constantly in my twitter feed and in the comments of youtube videos. That's not stalking, that's just the end result of you spending all your time having ranting about a console war that ended 25 years ago.

As for knowing about you not writing a single line of SNES code, again there's overlap between the communities. That is a common complaint that comes up about you. Personally I think if you're going to behave this way and throw this much mud at different systems, their fans, and their homebrew communities, you should at the very least have tried to write a simple "Hello World" sample on the system you're going on about.
Yup. And there is most definitely overlap! How can you be into retro dev and not be interested in what other people are doing (regardless of the system). Most people are. Doesn't matter if it's not your favorite system or such.



I try not to automatically judge too much about people that don't code, because I've met a few really intriguing people that just really understood how a retro system worked and could come up with all kinds of ideas and tricks that people who do code wouldn't have ever thought of. Granted, that's rare haha. He's got passion, and imagination, and just the right amount of obsessiveness... he just needs more experience/exposure. Which is fine, he just barely started retro dev stuff compared the rest of it. But he gets defensive and impatient about it. I also wish he would just drop or at least tone down the console war crusade. Because the crusade/rage part aside, the passion he brings is nice.. it gives the snes dev section some needed energy. But like my PhD mentor used to always say, "Passion is nice, but it's dedication that sees you to the end". I'd rather see him get comfortable with the system - build up the courage to start coding on it (you don't have to be an amazing coder). We'll see how long it lasts though (I've been in the scene long enough, and have seen many come in with a bang and then just disappear).
psycopathicteen
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by psycopathicteen »

dougeff wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 6:04 pm
Sega Genesis map sizes

32x32
64x32
32x64
64x64
128x32
32x128

*always applies to both layers
*always 8x8 tiles

.
.
Edit... since SNES has 16x16 tiles and 64x64 maps (or mode 7 with 8x8 tiles and 128x128 maps) that's actually more map than Sega Genesis can do, if we're counting pixels... by a factor of 4.

SNES 1024x1024 = 1,048,576 pixels / largest map
Genesis 512x512 = 262,144 pixels / largest map
Wait, you're telling me that the Genesis always applies the same size to both layers?
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dougeff
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by dougeff »

Wait, you're telling me that the Genesis always applies the same size to both layers?
Yes.

Screenshot_20220715-130950_Drive.jpg
VDP register 16, affects both plane A and plane B

Quoting this...

https://segaretro.org/Sega_Mega_Drive/Planes#Size

"Size
The dimensions of the foreground and background planes are set by VDP register $10. Both planes have the same size."
nesdoug.com -- blog/tutorial on programming for the NES
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

In terms of being into the retro scene or trying to make a game to work on retro systems, etc, I really don't think we should be judging and almost dictating what someone else does, they way they choose to do it, why they do it, or how they should be doing it to be viewed and treated as legit or worthy.

I don't think we should be dictating to people what display aspect ratio they should be using, what cables they should be using, what type of TV they should be using, what device they should be playing the games on, that they're not doing it right if they don't show scanlines, that it's not legit if it isn't burned onto a ROM and running directly on some thirty year old SNES plugged into some ancient TV, and so on--or basically looking down upon them otherwise.

I mean, I don't tell all the programmers in here to go out and learn to draw proper art or get degrees in game design. Also, if a programmer in here tells me they're making some prototype for whatever reason, I certainly don't say their reason is wrong, that they should just do something else that I would rather see and that I think is the thing they should be making, and the like (well, other than trying to light a fire to get some more SNES dev stuff on the go). Basically, "Even though you've specifically stated on multiple occasions that you're using Mode 0 to show off the capabilities of the four background layers, you should just stop using Mode 0 and make your game in Mode 1--because I've decided that's the correct way to make your SNES game". But, yeah, as an artist, I'll certainly feel free to say when some art is matter-of-fact being viewed proportionally incorrect (whether that be more authentic to the original experience or not), that I personally prefer it looking proportionally correct, but each person can do whatever they want (although it will still be matter-of-fact proportionally correct one way and proportionally incorrect the other--but each to their own).

I respect the part the programmers in here do exceptionally well and look to learn some tips and tricks about that from them (doesn't mean I won't question things they say and debate various things with them). And, at the same time, I think I've been very clear that I don't want to be a programmer, which is my right. I know I've stated on multiple occasions that my focus is on the design and art, and, when the pieces come together, I will be expecting some other genius to do the programming. So it's not a comfortable environment to always feel like I'm being pushed to think, talk and act like a programmer or else I'm doing it wrong, even to the point of literally being harassed over and over and over in this single thread by one person to show I directly coded my demo or somehow it's all irrelevant. Again, like only a programmer point of view or a programming approach is valid--no. A game demo for SNES isn't legit, deserves no respect, should be ridiculed, until you go and learn SNES code and program it on SNES directly yourself--can't even get another SNES programmer to program it for you, apparently, according to at least one person in here--what the hell.

Again, imagine if I turned around and basically said "Your game design skills are garbage, your art looks crap [programmer art], your demo isn't legit at all--until you prove you can draw proper art and actually understand good game design. And I just kept repeating that, forcing some backwards point that code is worthless, but proof you can do some proper design and art directly yourself will validate your creation. I'd be immediately labelled in here by everyone as a ****--and probably get a warning or get banned. That's pretty much what happened to me in this thread from the other direction, and it got completely and utterly ignored by the mod, and I got a warning when I even remotely turned around and told the other person to do basically the same ridiculous thing similarly over and over too.

I created a demo that fits pretty much every limitation and spec of SNES in Game Maker 7 (and I designed, created the art for and even programmed it all myself), I then got multiple SNES programmers to make working demos inside both ROM hacks and SMC files that run directly in emulators, but, until I code some SNES stuff myself--until I literally go learn SNES programming, which I have explicitly stated I have no interest in or passion on indeed aptitude for--does not count (at least according to some).

I dunno, maybe it really is all just me, I'm the sole problem in this forum and it was all sunshine and rainbows until I came here and darkened everyone's world by talking about things from more of a design/art point of view, asking questions using words and descriptions that most laymen seem to have no issues with, or pointing out ways the SNES betters the Genesis from the literal position of being a hardcore SNES fan (or even fanboy) who actually likes the fact the SNES is better than the Genesis in many ways (as is the Genesis better than the SNES in many ways) and has no problem with saying as much, and everyone else is all fine and dandy and hunky dory.

But let's all see if we can live together in peace and harmony going forward as I continue working on my SNES Mode 0 prototype in Game Maker 7, specifically with the intention [or at least one of the intentions] of showing off stuff basically impossible on Genesis and openly stating as much (because I'm a SNES fan and grew up during the 16-bit console wars and have literally no issue with the idea that even today some people get off on debating and even arguing the various points of pretty much the most infamous and passionate rivalry and war in all of gaming), and continue to ask lots of questions and hope to get answers to those questions from people who know the system inside and out, on my way to one day, hopefully, making a proper SNES game.

Coolio :)

PS. I think we all know I didn't go specifically looking for some random's ancient posts on YouTube to comment to them directly or whatever. A few videos popped up in my feed and/or I was looking for videos about either/both SNES and Genesis capabilities, what has been done on each system in recent times, classic vs videos, etc. I watched them. I had an opinion on either the video topic or some of the comments. I commented myself. Classic 16-bit console war debates ensued. Par for the course. I certainly didn't read through some person's detailed comment history or video descriptions and then insult them for asking for some other people to work on a game with them. I'd personally find that rather admirable--asking for the help of others with the aim of creating something cool--but that's just me. But I did tell said person to f'k off at some point, stop wasting my time, and get back to me when they prove their claims that Genesis could basically do what I was demonstrating in my Mode 0 demos and telling me my demo didn't count because I hadn't programmed and got it running directly on SNES with my own down hands (yet they themselves had never done a single thing on SNES apparently). But we all tell our own narrative, don't we.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
TrekkiesUnite118
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

To be clear, the issue isn't that you want to do a Mode 0 game. You do you and have fun with it. The problem that gets you into trouble is when you hold up those game maker demos as something that only the SNES can do to antagonize and start console wars with other devs and communities. The reason for this comes down to two main points:

1) Those demos aren't running on an actual SNES.
2) Those demos aren't using those layers in a way that couldn't be replicated with with less layers through clever use of various different techniques used over the years.

One issue with the first point is that it's misleading to say it's a Mode 0 SNES game when it's not running on an SNES. The issue with the 2nd point is when you start lashing out at other devs who come forward and point out that a lot of what you're doing could be achieved with less layers if you simply went about it a little differently. You can't sit there antagonizing other console dev communities and then start crying and throwing fits when other devs speak up and say "Well hold on we think that could be doable with less layers, here's how."

Which that lashing out brings us back to the first point. You're trying to argue these very technical arguments without really trying to code any of it yourself. As a result it's very obvious that there's gaps in your knowledge, and then you have the audacity to demand others program demos for you to prove you right or wrong.

Honestly it comes off more that you only care about console warring and are just using the homebrew community to try and win arguments for you. If this isn't what you're actually trying to do, then I'd highly suggest you drop the console war approach and sit down, learn the system you want to make your game for, and start trying to make things work on it yourself.
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jeffythedragonslayer
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by jeffythedragonslayer »

I think the key takeaway when talking to programmers, iNCEPTIONAL, is you want to paint a picture in their mind about what exactly you want the machine to do. The reason we use a lot of jargon is because they are the correct words - for example car mechanics don't say "the thing that uses a rotating magnetic field," they say "alternator." CRTs also use oscillating magnetic fields :) When someone uses a word that more laymen may recognize but it's imprecise technically, we may kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't paint a precise picture in our mind, so we need to ask more questions about what exactly you're talking about. We don't want to misunderstand your question and give you wrong information. Undisbeliever even started a glossary on the MediaWiki so we are not far from having this be a solved problem.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Edit: This is to the comment above the comment above. Lol

I have a great suggestion. How about we stop conflating why we imagine someone did something with factually why they did something. For example, it's possible I just posted an example of my Mode 0 demo to antagonize. That is indeed possible. But that's just what you think. You don't know my actual motivations or intensions in that exact moment, why, after our long back and forth, I thought that was the right time to post that link. Was it sinister or just par for the course in the conversation we'd been engaging in for hours at that point. What I do know for a fact is you repeatedly, both in that YouTube comments section and in here, basically asserted that unless I programmed whatever SNES demo directly myself and even had it running on a real SNES, it's pretty much meaningless. The direct assertion being, only programming, only code, and code you have directly written/programmed yourself and indeed tested on real hardware, is worthy, only you being a programmer is worthy, only programmers are valid, only your programmer way or thinking and doing things counts. Now, I don't know how that comes across to others, but I know some words that would describe that kind of way of thinking in a way this layman would understand very clearly, and I certainly have my personal view of such thinking.

And, again, it can't be achieved. A shallow facsimile of what I'm doing there is not achieved. You might think it is. I say believing that is just how you don't have to say out loud that the SNES is doing something that literally and factually cannot be done on Genesis. But I have no problem saying it out loud. Removing entire layers of parallax, losing the transparency, losing the window/shape masking, missing the smooth background colour gradients, reducing the Pulfrich 3D effect . . . If I wanted to build a game with two background layers, no transparency, missing window/shape masking, no smooth background colour gradients, a lesser 3D effect, etc, I might have considered making a game on Genesis. But, go figure, it's a SNES game I'm making and one specifically designed to literally have four fully overlapping parallax layers, plus all the other bells and whistles SNES offers. And I'm doing it this way specifically because it is directly impossible to do it on Genesis. How can I write "FOUR FULL SCREEN FULLY OVERLAPPING BACKGROUND PARALLAX LAYERS!" or whatever spiel on the back of the box, when the game only has three fully overlapping layers, or even worse, just two. What a total and utter fail, given the whole point of the exercise. I understand you're not quite grasping that, so I shouldn't really be annoyed at you, but boy is it frustrating wasting my breath constantly trying to explain the point of it all over and over to you. Remember "Genesis Does!"? Well, this is "Nintendoes what Genesis doesn't!"--and to the max, hence FOUR fully overlapping background layers and not three, nor two.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:52 am, edited 18 times in total.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

jeffythedragonslayer wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:57 am I think the key takeaway when talking to programmers, iNCEPTIONAL, is you want to paint a picture in their mind about what exactly you want the machine to do. The reason we use a lot of jargon is because they are the correct words - for example car mechanics don't say "the thing that uses a rotating magnetic field," they say "alternator." CRTs also use oscillating magnetic fields :) When someone uses a word that more laymen may recognize but it's imprecise technically, we may kind of understand what you are saying but it doesn't paint a precise picture in our mind, so we need to ask more questions about what exactly you're talking about. We don't want to misunderstand your question and give you wrong information. Undisbeliever even started a glossary on the MediaWiki so we are not far from having this be a solved problem.
Wow that was fast. Was that after discussing it the other day? I look forward to that. :)
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jeffythedragonslayer
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by jeffythedragonslayer »

Yes. May it grow and grow and eventually have full pages for the different terms: https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Glossary
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

jeffythedragonslayer wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:11 am Yes. May it grow and grow and eventually have full pages for the different terms: https://snes.nesdev.org/wiki/Glossary
And lots of pictures for "me" types. :D
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jeffythedragonslayer
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by jeffythedragonslayer »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:18 am And lots of pictures for "me" types. :D
I think a lot of the learning gap is that (at least for me) pictures are a lot easier to understand, but it's a lot easier for me to type out words I'm happy with than draw pictures I feel comfortable showing to others. You can see some of my early "programmer art" here: :lol:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1211/1211.0059.pdf
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.07873.pdf
psycopathicteen
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by psycopathicteen »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:17 pm
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:11 pm Well, I tell you what, when you have even close to anything I've done, feel free to spout your mouth of. Some words on a screen, I think you will find, are so far below even a Game Maker test that it's beyond laughable the position you seem to imagine you are in to think I have even remotely anything to prove to you before you do anything meaningful at all the other way around first.

Oh, and you keep trying to find ways to not just accept the truth before you, but here's a couple of very early and very rough examples of my Mode 0 test running NOT in Game Maker:

Mode0Bridge.zip

mode0_1_1.zip

Now, show me you Genesis version. . . .

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.
Not sure how accurate Ares is to a real SNES as I don't have an SNES flashcart yet, but the one demo is a flickering mess and the other is a SMW ROM hack that runs at less than 20fps. And neither one seem to be as intricate and detailed as your Game Maker demo. Finally, did you actually make these? If you're demanding I write a demo I don't think it's much of a stretch for you to offer to do the same yourself.
The slowdown is caused by the emulator. The little framerate meter you see at the bottom of the window is framerate the emulator is running. It looks like BSNES has an issue with using sound and Mode 0 at the same time. If you disable "video sync" it runs at 60fps.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

jeffythedragonslayer wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:31 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:18 am And lots of pictures for "me" types. :D
I think a lot of the learning gap is that (at least for me) pictures are a lot easier to understand, but it's a lot easier for me to type out words I'm happy with than draw pictures I feel comfortable showing to others. You can see some of my early "programmer art" here: :lol:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1211/1211.0059.pdf
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.07873.pdf
I'd say that's almost more like scientific illustration. Lol

It's fine, someone can just shove a bunch of Mario and Kirby images in the wiki, and sorted. :D
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jeffythedragonslayer
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Re: Why does having a bigger tilemap matter?

Post by jeffythedragonslayer »

I think people would feel less scared about Nintendo trying to take it down if we create our own characters to put on the wiki.
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