The 16-bit War. . . .

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TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:24 am That dude's numbers seem to add up to well over 713 games total (which is the official number that comes up on Google, Wikipedia, etc), if I'm reading his numbers correctly, maybe even closer to 1000, so am I missing some data about the total number of Genesis/Mega Drive games here?

Yup, 351 (music only, 10 of which use PSG samples) + 556 (no PSG use at all) + 96 (minor/partial PSG use, one or a few tracks) = 1003 total.

Also, at least from what I can see, he's confirmed 556 that don't use PSG at all, which would indeed be more than half, i.e., the majority.

Am I reading and/or counting that stuff wrong, or, can we now call this one also settled, and my article remains as is?

Well, I could change it to something like "although, the majority of games didn't use the extra PSG channels". That would be perfectly acceptable to me. In fact, I'll trust this article as the best and most reliable source presented so far, and do that just now. :)
That list is only checking music, it's not checking sound effects. So those games in the "No PSG Use" list could still be using PSG for sound effects. I know your desperately trying to find a way to write off the PSG channels so you don't have to put a 10 in the Audio channels column for the Genesis, but the reality is those channels are part of the hardware and 100% count towards it's specs.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Pokun wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:57 am Anyway the SN76489 in the Megadrive isn't just a legacy feature for backwards-compatibility with the Mark III, it's the official and only PSG the system has, just like the Neo Geo having an internal SSG in its FM chip as its PSG. Not counting it as part of the system's audio capabilities is just silly.
That's fine. And maybe another article can describe it as such. I have no problem with that. I'm happy with describing it as a legacy sound chip put in there to allow backwards compactivity with Master System games, which many other sources I've seen also do, and I'm entirely inclined to believe is accurate. And I think most people outside of here will be fine with that. I don't want my article to get too into weeds with details that most people who aren't developers and programmers don't really care about. So, I think it's at about the right level of technical detail and accuracy in the way everything is described for the main audience it's aimed at. I'm pretty happy with where it's at in that regard.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:30 am, edited 4 times in total.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:07 am
That's fine. And maybe another article can describe it as such. I have not problem with that. I'm happy with describing it as a legacy chip put in there to allow backwards compactivity with Master System games, which many other sources I've seen also do. And I think most people outside of here will be fine with that. I don't want my article to get too into weeds with details that most people who aren't developers and programmers don't really care about. So, I think it's at about the right level of technical detail and accuracy in the way everything is described for the main audience it's aimed at. I'm pretty happy with where it's at.
So again you don't want an actual accurate or objective article, but instead a heavily biased fanboy rant full of misinformation and dishonesty?
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:04 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:24 am That dude's numbers seem to add up to well over 713 games total (which is the official number that comes up on Google, Wikipedia, etc), if I'm reading his numbers correctly, maybe even closer to 1000, so am I missing some data about the total number of Genesis/Mega Drive games here?

Yup, 351 (music only, 10 of which use PSG samples) + 556 (no PSG use at all) + 96 (minor/partial PSG use, one or a few tracks) = 1003 total.

Also, at least from what I can see, he's confirmed 556 that don't use PSG at all, which would indeed be more than half, i.e., the majority.

Am I reading and/or counting that stuff wrong, or, can we now call this one also settled, and my article remains as is?

Well, I could change it to something like "although, the majority of games didn't use the extra PSG channels". That would be perfectly acceptable to me. In fact, I'll trust this article as the best and most reliable source presented so far, and do that just now. :)
That list is only checking music, it's not checking sound effects. So those games in the "No PSG Use" list could still be using PSG for sound effects. I know your desperately trying to find a way to write off the PSG channels so you don't have to put a 10 in the Audio channels column for the Genesis, but the reality is those channels are part of the hardware and 100% count towards it's specs.
And, when a list with everything properly/directly checked and counted that covers both the music and sound effects is provided, I can look into updating the text slightly again, if necessary. No problem with that. Do you have a link to such a list?
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

Side note: What's up with the discrepancy between the 713 Genesis/Mega Drive games listed in most sources I've seen vs that guy's list that has 1003 games he's considered regarding whether they use the PSG or not? A roughly 300 figure difference is worth clarifying, me thinks.

Edit: Ah, it seems like these sources take "Genesis" literally when typed into Google, when I was really looking for total number of games across all versions of the core system (Genesis, Mega Drive, etc). The number that comes up for all the versions is "over 900", which, along with any random unlicensed and whatever other games, would get a number around that 1003 figure. OK.

I do think it's getting into debatable territory now though, because my article clearly isn't about "SNES vs Genesis as viewed through a lens 30+ years into the future and taking into account an ever-increasing catalogue of unlicensed games, and beta software, and rom hacks, and clone hardware releases, and new third party peripherals and so on". I mean, man, if I were to do that, I might as well include the SNES Mini and Genesis Mini too--although, even there I would also give the SNES the overall win for multiple reasons--or discuss the legacy of each console and how popular they both are in modern times and how many SNES and Sega games are still being sold via various online/digital platforms and the like. Touching on a couple of things in the content of my article is fine, but that's about where I would personally stop, otherwise it could just go on and on. My article is obviously more about the consoles basically as there were in the '90s when everyone had one and how they stacked up next to each other, but just created by me in 2022.

I'm getting into the weeds now though, so I'll just stick with my original intent for the article and let others go off and consider things in whatever context makes best sense for them and they can create their own articles around that.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:23 am And, when a list with everything checked and counted that cover both the music and sound effects is provided, I can look into updating the text slightly again, if necessary. No problem with that. Do you have a link to such a list?
Why is a list even needed for this? Why do we need to go through all these hoops to prove to you that PSG is used before you'll admit it's part of the hardware and should be included in these specs?

This would be like arguing the Saturn's second SH-2 CPU and SCU-DSP shouldn't count in it's specs because old internet rumors claimed they were rarely used. Or that the SNES's high resolution modes shouldn't count because they were rarely used. It's childish and silly. If it's part of the base hardware and usable it counts.

Honestly dealing with Sega Retro's nonsense is bad enough. We don't need you providing Nintendo themed misinformation as well.
lidnariq
Posts: 11432
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:12 am

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by lidnariq »

I'm confident what he did is:
He downloaded a full set of VGMs of Genesis soundtracks from somewhere
And wrote some automatic tool to check for VGM usage

I was going to volunteer to do the same, but I see no need to now.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:57 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:23 am And, when a list with everything checked and counted that cover both the music and sound effects is provided, I can look into updating the text slightly again, if necessary. No problem with that. Do you have a link to such a list?
Why is a list even needed for this? Why do we need to go through all these hoops to prove to you that PSG is used before you'll admit it's part of the hardware and should be included in these specs?

This would be like arguing the Saturn's second SH-2 CPU and SCU-DSP shouldn't count in it's specs because old internet rumors claimed they were rarely used. Or that the SNES's high resolution modes shouldn't count because they were rarely used. It's childish and silly. If it's part of the base hardware and usable it counts.

Honestly dealing with Sega Retro's nonsense is bad enough. We don't need you providing Nintendo themed misinformation as well.
You don't need to jump through any hoops at all to prove anything to me--unless you want me to change my article further to satisfy you.
Last edited by iNCEPTIONAL on Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:03 am You don't need to jump through any hoops at all to prove anything to me--unless you want me to change my article to satisfy you.
So then why did you ask for input if you're not going to change something that everyone in this thread is telling you is blatantly wrong?
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:09 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:03 am You don't need to jump through any hoops at all to prove anything to me--unless you want me to change my article to satisfy you.
So then why did you ask for input if you're not going to change something that everyone in this thread is telling you is blatantly wrong?
I didn't. I said, "What does you think of that?" I didn't say, "Is there anything you would like me to change to make you happy?". I am simply being friendly and polite and accommodating some feedback, maybe even making a couple of minor changes if I choose to and/or that I deem necessary, up to a point. And I'm happy with where my article is at now.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:12 am I didn't. I said, "What does you think of that?"
Most people would interpret that as asking for input.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:17 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:12 am I didn't. I said, "What does you think of that?"
Most people would interpret that as asking for input.
And I happily accommodated that interpretation and made a few changes back and forth and considered the various information that multiple people put forth. And now I'm happy with where the article is at. Thanks for your input.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:20 am And I happily accommodated that interpretation and made a few changes back and forth and considered the various information that multiple people put forth. And now I'm happy with where the article is at. Thanks for your input.
So you're happy with being dishonest to people for the sake of your console war? Good to know, it says a lot about your character. Since it's clear you don't care about any actual facts and just want a fanboy article, I'll just stop looking at it then and suggest others do the same. Hopefully it will stay buried in it's corner of the internet and not gain any traction in any search engines so as few of people as possible read your misinformation.
iNCEPTIONAL

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by iNCEPTIONAL »

TrekkiesUnite118 wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:24 am
iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:20 am And I happily accommodated that interpretation and made a few changes back and forth and considered the various information that multiple people put forth. And now I'm happy with where the article is at. Thanks for your input.
So you're happy with being dishonest to people for the sake of your console war? Good to know, it says a lot about your character. Since it's clear you don't care about any actual facts and just want a fanboy article, I'll just stop looking at it then and suggest others do the same. Hopefully it will stay buried in it's corner of the internet and not gain any traction in any search engines so as few of people as possible read your misinformation.
I expect maybe a hundred people across the entirety of time ever looked at it. I'm not doing it for popularity or approval, so that's no problem. For the majority of those people who do stumble upon it under normal Internet circumstances, I think it will be absolutely fine. I'm happy with that small achievement. And I'm happy with the article.
TrekkiesUnite118
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:56 pm

Re: The 16-bit War. . . .

Post by TrekkiesUnite118 »

iNCEPTIONAL wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:47 amI'm happy with that small achievement.
Dishonesty is an achievement to you?
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