What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

You can talk about almost anything that you want to on this board.

Moderator: Moderators

Pokun
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Location: Hokkaido, Japan

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Pokun »

I've also always heard it was to counter piracy which was a concern with CD-based systems at the time. The Gamecube's optical disc format is a slightly modified form of (mini-) DVD which won't take DVD discs as is (it spins the opposite way around and there's that barcode) much like Sega's GD-ROM being a slight modification of the CD-ROM format.
Pirates managed to defeat it in the end so that it could read normal DVDs, but at least it took longer than cracking the PS2 if I remember correctly, and the requirement of using mini-DVDs was an indeed an inconvenience for pirates (although my own Gamecube wasn't chipped or anything, so I never dabbled in GC piracy).

Nowadays the easiest way to run arbitrary code on a real GC (as in not a Wii) is to use the Swiss homebrew, an SDGecko (can be bought cheaply) and a game like Smash Bros DX with an exploit to run it from, no modding necessary. Uploading Swiss and the exploited save data to a memory card is easiest done using a soft-modded Wii via the GameCube Memory Manager (GCMM) homebrew (which is also the GC memory card manager to use for backing up GC memory cards in general as it can copy protected files).

Either way I doubt the format had much to do with Nintendo loosing the 128-bit console war, although the PS2 being able to play CD and DVD audio/video was a selling point Nintendo lacked. Nintendo didn't really offer anything new with the Gamecube, to the consumer it was basically a 128-bit PS1-like game machine complete with optical discs and the exact same memory card system. Even the GC-GBA-connectivity was like a ripoff of Sega's Visual Memory and Sony's Pocketstation (both highly praised and successful), and people wasn't too impressed by it at the time (although I think it made a lot of more sense for Nintendo to use their existing popular portable console, a card Sega and Sony simply didn't have to play). The fact that the Gamecube was more powerful than the PS2 didn't seem to help.

Nintendo managed to win the next war with the Wii (which this time was the underdog in terms of hardware power), probably because instead of trying to copy Sony and ride on their success wave they finally offered something new again and thus hooked the essential 3rd-party support a console needs to survive and the Gamecube lacked.

BTW, Nintendo didn't just loose the war big time to the PS2, the Gamecube almost made them go bankrupt, despite still ruling the portable market with the GBC, GBA and the Pokemon craze. It's kind of weird because they sold 21.74 million cubes according to Wikipedia just 2 million less than the Xbox which did (just barely) make a profit. I guess the Xbox simply made more money on games than Nintendo.


So if there is something that should have been changed with the Gamecube to make it more successful and get a larger library, I think it would be making it a quite radically different product and try to do its own thing, not just changing something as shallowly as the media format (although it would be neat if it could be used as a CD-/DVD-player like Sony's systems).
That said I personally loved the cube back in the day and I think Nintendo improved many things with it, such as the Nintendo 64's revolutionary but infamously frail analogue joystick. I still think the Gamecube controller is one of the most ergonomic and comfortable controllers of all time, so I'm happy that it is still (somewhat) supported by the Switch.
Catyak
Posts: 54
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2022 4:33 pm

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Catyak »

On the Game.com:
The CPU it uses seems to be different than the SM83, it has multiply and divide functions per this datasheet, but I can't rule out it being another Z80 inspired core. Also, my understanding is that Tiger was the only publisher, but not the only developer, as they contracted out development of games to several different (generally) obscure game developers.

On the GameCube:

I have a crackpot theory why the GameCube uses mini-DVD sized discs; they wanted the GameCube Japanese game boxes to take up (roughly) the same space as the previous Japanese N64 boxes, and they couldn't do this with full size discs.
tepples
Posts: 22708
Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2004 11:12 pm
Location: NE Indiana, USA (NTSC)
Contact:

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by tepples »

"it spins the opposite way around" is a myth. Verify that it's a myth by turning off a GameCube and opening the lid, then doing the same for a PlayStation or slim PlayStation 2 that uses CD or DVD media. These are more verifiable from the debugmode article.
  1. The burst cutting area (the "BCA" or "barcode") encodes the game's registration ID as well as the position of six physical pinholes in the disc's lead-in, which are made with the same laser as the BCA.
  2. The whitening random number generator, used to make "DC" (too many ones or zeroes in a row) less likely, has a different seeding function based on the registration ID.
  3. Each sector's payload begins 6 bytes earlier in the physical sector. This is analogous to the difference between CD-ROM mode 1 and CD-ROM XA mode 2 form 1.
Pokun
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Location: Hokkaido, Japan

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Pokun »

Heh I didn't know that but always thought it strange that a backwards-spinning Gamecube disc drive can read normal DVDs with just a modchip, so it makes sense to me. According to that the BCA-barcode is also not something unique to GC discs, it's part of the DVD standard and common DVD-ROM drives (but not necessarily DVD players) can read them using the same laser that reads the tracks.

So basically it sounds like the GC disc drive is a DVD drive with a custom firmware that expects a modified variant of the DVD standard data format on the disc and that chokes when a disc doesn't pass the region/piracy check.


I think the Dreamcast's GD-ROM had quite an obvious loophole (well in hindsight anyway), since it allows to run arbitrary code from burned CDs in the MIL-CD format (which is an audio CD with Sega's custom format for adding extra multimedia to it that can run on a Dreamcast). Late Dreamcasts came without MIL-CD support however, since this was exploited by pirates. Well, it's not like it was what killed the Dreamcast.
creaothceann
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:47 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by creaothceann »

SNES:
  • There could be dedicated address/data bus on the cartridge connector that allow the APU to read data directly from ROM; would eliminate song loading times (very annoying e.g. in Secret of Mana).
    Similar address/data bus(es) for graphics could eliminate or at least greatly reduce the need for graphics loading times and VRAM.
    And of course a final address/data bus for supplying the base unit's CPU with instructions and data.
    All of these buses could use the same set of pins, just multiplexed through a relatively high master clock. The SNES already uses multiplexing for transferring the audio data to the DAC at 32k * 768 = 24.576 MHz. (For comparison, the Genesis master clock frequency is 5 * 7 * 9 / 88 MHz * 15 = 53.693{18} MHz.)
    This would also imply a cartridge PCB filled with many smaller ROM chips instead of fewer larger chips. Perhaps the smaller sizes would have increased yields, enough to offset the cost of the more complicated PCB design.
  • The CPU could get a 16-bit data bus, which would open up the cramped opcode space. All general-purpose addressing modes could apply to all general-purpose registers.
    Speaking of registers, the Motorola 68k has 8 32-bit data registers and 8 24-bit address registers... The SNES probably doesn't need 32-bit registers; having 16 16-bit registers instead might be a win.
  • Instead of 256x224 or 256x239 at ~60.0988 fps, a resolution of 320x240 (4:3), 384x240 (16:10) or 426x240 (16:9) at exactly 60 fps would be more suited for modern displays.
  • DSP chips could be implemented as modules for a pass-through cartridge (à la Game Genie / Pro Action Replay), or by putting them into their own cartridges that can be inserted into the base unit (à la N64 Expansion Pak).
  • Did games use the full 128 KB of WRAM? Perhaps that could've been reduced to save costs.
  • Full 8-bit brightness setting; easier OAM format; non-wrapping sprites with signed positions; packed-pixel instead of bit-plane modes; timing oddities removed that come from short/long dots and from using several clock crystals.
- - -
Pokun wrote: Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:07 pm Nintendo didn't just loose the war big time to the PS2, the Gamecube almost made them go bankrupt
Hard to imagine nowadays...
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
User avatar
Individualised
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:46 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Individualised »

creaothceann wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 12:53 pm SNES:
  • There could be dedicated address/data bus on the cartridge connector that allow the APU to read data directly from ROM; would eliminate song loading times (very annoying e.g. in Secret of Mana).
    Similar address/data bus(es) for graphics could eliminate or at least greatly reduce the need for graphics loading times and VRAM.
    And of course a final address/data bus for supplying the base unit's CPU with instructions and data.
    All of these buses could use the same set of pins, just multiplexed through a relatively high master clock. The SNES already uses multiplexing for transferring the audio data to the DAC at 32k * 768 = 24.576 MHz. (For comparison, the Genesis master clock frequency is 5 * 7 * 9 / 88 MHz * 15 = 53.693{18} MHz.)
    This would also imply a cartridge PCB filled with many smaller ROM chips instead of fewer larger chips. Perhaps the smaller sizes would have increased yields, enough to offset the cost of the more complicated PCB design.
  • The CPU could get a 16-bit data bus, which would open up the cramped opcode space. All general-purpose addressing modes could apply to all general-purpose registers.
    Speaking of registers, the Motorola 68k has 8 32-bit data registers and 8 24-bit address registers... The SNES probably doesn't need 32-bit registers; having 16 16-bit registers instead might be a win.
  • Instead of 256x224 or 256x239 at ~60.0988 fps, a resolution of 320x240 (4:3), 384x240 (16:10) or 426x240 (16:9) at exactly 60 fps would be more suited for modern displays.
  • DSP chips could be implemented as modules for a pass-through cartridge (à la Game Genie / Pro Action Replay), or by putting them into their own cartridges that can be inserted into the base unit (à la N64 Expansion Pak).
  • Did games use the full 128 KB of WRAM? Perhaps that could've been reduced to save costs.
  • Full 8-bit brightness setting; easier OAM format; non-wrapping sprites with signed positions; packed-pixel instead of bit-plane modes; timing oddities removed that come from short/long dots and from using several clock crystals.
Supposedly the DSP-1 was originally part of the SNES specifications but was removed in the final revision. This is why Pilotwings has the DSP chip in the cartridge, since they didn't have enough time to rewrite the game to not use it.
strat
Posts: 409
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:08 pm
Location: Missouri

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by strat »

BTW, Nintendo didn't just loose the war big time to the PS2, the Gamecube almost made them go bankrupt, despite still ruling the portable market with the GBC, GBA and the Pokemon craze.
It's kind of surprising this thread has so much dissection of the Gamecube, but nobody's mentioned N64 should've had a CD-ROM. Nintendo probably would've had to pay Sony and Phillips, though, so that wasn't happening. That doesn't guarantee the N64 gaming library would've been much better - maybe more multiplatform games (Nintendo hyped up every N64 game being exclusive but that fell apart before too long). But chances are PS1 wouldn't have left it so far in the dust.
Did games use the full 128 KB of WRAM? Perhaps that could've been reduced to save costs.
Many games with big, sprawling levels probably used a lot of it just on decompressed maps.
User avatar
Individualised
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:46 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Individualised »

strat wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 7:35 pm It's kind of surprising this thread has so much dissection of the Gamecube, but nobody's mentioned N64 should've had a CD-ROM. Nintendo probably would've had to pay Sony and Phillips, though, so that wasn't happening. That doesn't guarantee the N64 gaming library would've been much better - maybe more multiplatform games (Nintendo hyped up every N64 game being exclusive but that fell apart before too long). But chances are PS1 wouldn't have left it so far in the dust.
I feel as if with both of their deals with both Sony and Phillips falling through, Nintendo made a bit of a bad name for themselves and no company would have probably wanted to work with them at the time. Otherwise I think the 64DD would have been a CD drive add-on and not a floppy drive. Other reasons Nintendo may have wanted to avoid having a CD drive, was because it and a BIOS rom etc would have made the console more expensive and more prone to failure.

Something the N64 should have had (or rather, fixed) though was functional additive blending. Apparently it doesn't work properly hence why few games use it, most transparency in N64 games is an alpha blend, or done in software. It would have made some effects in certain games look much nicer.
creaothceann
Posts: 611
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:47 am
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by creaothceann »

The early CD-based consoles could perhaps have made use of a small HDD for caching game data (i.e. anything that isn't FMV or streaming audio.

The price would be an issue though...
My current setup:
Super Famicom ("2/1/3" SNS-CPU-GPM-02) → SCART → OSSC → StarTech USB3HDCAP → AmaRecTV 3.10
Pokun
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Location: Hokkaido, Japan

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Pokun »

I don't think ROM cartridges was so bad for the Nintendo 64 from a technical perspective, but it was most likely indeed part of why Sony could steal so many 3rd-party makers from Nintendo. The Nintendo 64 was still better off than the Gamecube however, in which case Nintendo did go with optical discs, unlike with the Gamecube Nintendo broke even with the 64.

Factor 5 pointed out one benefit of the ROM cartridge format that made it possible to port an Indiana Jones game to the 64. Since copying data ROM to RAM is so much quicker than from CD-ROM to RAM, it was possible to stream level data, textures, sound, program code and other data while the game is running.

Another benefit is the lack of the horrible loading times that early CD systems often had. Playstation and Neo Geo CD are both pretty bad. PC Engine is probably fine because there are not too much data to load in the first place.


People tend to say the 64 was badly needing 8 or 16 kB texture memory instead of 4 kB which would have made it easier to use textures with higher resolution. I'm not sure how it is worse than the PS1 or Saturn though as people only tends to compare it to a PC of the time, which is just unfair considering that consoles are supposed to be cheaper.
SNES AYE
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:28 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by SNES AYE »

SNES: I would add a 320x224 mode, so ports from many arcade games and some other consoles would be much easier. And, just because of the way the sprites-per-scanline limits are usually handled on these consoles, where they generally make sure you can have just enough to cover a full screen's width with sprites before flicker, it would also give it a side-benefit boost of being able to display a few more larger sprites in the likes of beat 'em ups before that flicker occurs too.

Also, in an ideal world, although not actually as essential imo, I would have had a faster CPU too. Similarly, also in an ideal world, I'd double the amount of VRAM that could be assigned to sprite tiles, or just let it use the VRAM for background and sprite tiles as it sees fit.

Those are really the main issues I find with SNES, and mostly only when comparing it to competing systems of the time, where having those things would just push it over the edge. The last couple I can ultimately live without, as they can be overcome pretty easily for the most part imo, but I really do wish it had that 320x224 mode.

Still, if a developer actually makes a game specifically for SNES and keeps both its strengths and weaknesses fully in mind in the design, art and programming stages, truly great things can be achieved with the system just as it is. And, thankfully, that actually happened a whole lot in the lifespan of the machine. :D
SNES AYE
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:28 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by SNES AYE »

Genesis: I'd increase that colour palette to SNES or PC Engine on-screen levels, and just have a much larger master palette in general.

And, in an ideal world, I'd increase the amount of background layers by one or two, add colour math for proper transparency effects that go beyond what the simple shadow/highlight mode can fake, include some kind of built-in Mode 7 capability like on SNES, have more PCM audio channels, and have that six-button joypad in the box with every single Genesis system from day one.

I think those are the main things I'd change, and the colours is really the big one there for me. The rest of them can be largely worked around, and even the limited colours to some degree, but I can usually just see in most Genesis titles that there's a few places where some additional colours could have really made a lot of difference and pushed it over the edge.

Still, if a developer actually makes a game specifically for Genesis and keeps both its strengths and weaknesses fully in mind in the design, art and programming stages, truly great things can be achieved with the system just as it is. And, thankfully, that actually happened a whole lot in the lifespan of the machine. :D
SNES AYE
Posts: 201
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2022 11:28 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by SNES AYE »

PC Engine: Actually very similar to Genesis for the most part in terms of what I'd change, with the increase in backgrounds being the thing I'd want most there, as that's really the most obvious limitation compared to the other competing consoles of the time.

Still, if a developer actually makes a game specifically for PC Engine and keeps both its strengths and weaknesses fully in mind in the design, art and programming stages, truly great things can be achieved with the system just as it is. And, thankfully, that actually happened a whole lot in the lifespan of the machine. :D
Pokun
Posts: 2681
Joined: Tue May 28, 2013 5:49 am
Location: Hokkaido, Japan

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Pokun »

PC-Engine
I agree, it is a very beautiful design of a console, with plenty of palettes, total number of colors, sprites, scrolling and wavetable sound channels, while still staying somewhat simple as 8-bit consoles usually are.
There are a few things I would have changed though:

1) Have BG character and sprite patterns use the same linear format in VRAM.
A very minor thing but the fact that the pattern data for BG characters and sprites uses two different formats is a bit annoying. The Character Generator patterns are interleaved while the patterns in the Sprite Generator are stored in a linear order which means there is no way for them to share the same pattern data. I don't know if there is a good technical reason to this, but if it could be changed it might as well be done. The fact that BG characters are always 8x8 pixels in size and that there are no 8x8 sprites makes this improvement less useful, which leads to the next improvement.

2) Add 8x8 dot sprite size.
This would work well with the above improvement and would be nice for saving VRAM in a game with a lot of smaller objects such as lasers and bullets.
According to Turboxray it would break the current VDC though.

3)Add a short-period noise mode to the noise sound channel.
Like that of the Famicom (except in very early versions) and the Game Boy APUs both has.

4) Add a second controller port, really.
I had siblings as a kid and having to wait for your turn to play could be a serious deal breaker back then. Having 2 ports would probably mean that more games would support 2 players.
I would also use some other connector than DIN for controllers as it's a kinda hassle to connect and prone to breaking.

The lack of a second background layer is one of the most common critics of the PCE. I guess people like to compare it to the 16-bit systems, and since it was released between the 8-bit and 16-bit eras that might be unavoidable.
Turboxray had the idea to add a second HUD-type of layer with an 8bpp mode via the CD-ROM2 upgrade.
Of course, SuperGrafx adds a second layer already with it's dual video chips, but it's essentially another console as the upgrade can't be bought to a normal "Shiroengine".
User avatar
Individualised
Posts: 310
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2022 6:46 am

Re: What is one thing about a retro console/computer's specifcations that you would change?

Post by Individualised »

The Amiga should have updated its sound hardware in later models. Everyone knows that the Amiga sound is great, but by the 90s it was becoming outdated compared to other 16-bit systems.
__
I suppose this doesn't exactly fit, but Atari shouldn't have scrapped the Panther in favour of the Jaguar. If the Panther ended up coming out in 1991 as planned I think things would have been a whole lot different for Atari. It could have given Sega and Nintendo a run for their money given its specs.
Post Reply