CRT monitor vs. CRT TV (also SNES region modding)

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Nikku4211
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CRT monitor vs. CRT TV (also SNES region modding)

Post by Nikku4211 »

regiscaelus wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:19 pm Thank you @linariq. It looks like I need to find a CRT monitor, then.
Note that CRT monitors and CRT TVs are completely different, so ideally, you'd want a CRT TV (if you already have a real console) to test real 15 kHz interlacing.
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rainwarrior
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by rainwarrior »

A TV is a monitor that has a channel tuner and loudspeaker. That capability is probably not important for this purpose?

A CRT TV will always have some input suitable for broadcast television (cable or antenna, 15khz and interlacing), might have composite, and might have S-Video or RGB if you're lucky.

CRT monitors have more variety in what kind of inputs they have, so you gotta make sure it has what you need, but there are plenty that can do 15khz and interlacing. Often they have composite, S-Video, or RGB inputs. A VGA monitor meant for PC computers usually would not have suitable inputs for our purpose. Also, a monitor that is not a TV won't have a channel tuner, and won't have a cable/antenna input. Some monitors have built-in speakers.

If you wanna use composite, a suitable monitor is fine, or most TVs from the 90s probably have composite in. If you wanna use the RF switch as cable input to channel 3, that one you'd need a TV for, but it's also the worst output method available. If you want higher quality RGB you might need a monitor.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by TmEE »

I imagine a PC monitor was thought of and they have one big difference, which is much lower presistence phosphors since they are not meant to display interlaced image. They can still show it but it will be even more flickery than a TV is.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by regiscaelus »

Nikku4211 wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:31 pm
regiscaelus wrote: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:19 pm Thank you @linariq. It looks like I need to find a CRT monitor, then.
Note that CRT monitors and CRT TVs are completely different, so ideally, you'd want a CRT TV (if you already have a real console) to test real 15 kHz interlacing.
Yes, this is actually what I meant; a CRT TV like in the olden days. I have never seen the effect of the interlaced mode or never paid attention to it at the time. However I need to find a TV that can handle PAL and NTSC composite signals as I have a variety of systems.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by rainwarrior »

A lot of people (myself included) like to use a PVM rather than a TV for this purpose. They're normally multi-sync for NTSC and PAL, have lots of tuning options, multiple inputs, and often RGB. They also tend to have a convenient cube shape.

Otherwise old TVs are more common and cheaper, especially if you want something larger, but it can be tricky to find a multi-sync one, at least in North America.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by regiscaelus »

rainwarrior wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 2:29 am A lot of people (myself included) like to use a PVM rather than a TV for this purpose. They're normally multi-sync for NTSC and PAL, have lots of tuning options, multiple inputs, and often RGB. They also tend to have a convenient cube shape.

Otherwise old TVs are more common and cheaper, especially if you want something larger, but it can be tricky to find a multi-sync one, at least in North America.
A PVM would be great but I can't justify the cost at the moment. I should be able to find a PAL TV fairly easily but an NTSC one will be expensive just for shipping it.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by rainwarrior »

Some consumer TVs do support both NTSC and PAL, and I've heard it's more common for TVs sold in PAL regions to provide this, but it's usually not a well known/advertised feature. Hard to know unless you can test it.

If the TV happens to have RGB input, I think there's a very good chance it will support both at least through RGB? I've heard some TVs are okay with the 50/60 Hz sync difference but don't have separate NTSC/PAL colour decoding, but RGB bypasses the colour problem. Needs a console that has RGB output, though. (Most 16-bit consoles are capable, but for 8-bit ones it's less common.)

For the purposes of seeing interlacing effects, RF, composite, S-Video, and RGB can all do it. They just have increasing picture clarity.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by TmEE »

In Europe, almost all TVs support 60Hz. It is rare to see a TV that only supports 50Hz, which basically are only ancient designs from 80s and before.
NTSC support is a different matter and only high end things tend to support it (28" and larger screens). Most chipsets used are PAL, NTSC and SECAM capable and sometimes it is only matter of adding 3.579545MHz crystal to get NTSC support.
If you use RGB, NTSC support won't matter anymore and majority of TVs have RGB capable SCART input (and SCART connection is more common than RCAs for example, even in low end TVs though lowest end Korean etc. stuff may have RCAs or RF only).
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by Oziphantom »

PAL is not Europe, it is used by Europe as well. Not all PAL has SCART.


Things that say "60hz" and then decided that means you are cool with NTSC colour encoding is my new pet evil. No PAL machine I said 60 not NTSC!
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by creaothceann »

There's also PAL60...
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by Oziphantom »

does the SNES output PAL 60 when you do the mod, or does that also switch it to NTSC colour encoding?
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by lidnariq »

Depends on which SNES. The ones with the separate RGB-to-composite encoder (i.e. the S-RGB / S-ENC / BA6592) have an input that toggles whether the input clock is used for PAL or NTSC chroma encoding - and then you just have to provide the right clock as well.

I believe the 1-chip models don't expose this toggle.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by Oziphantom »

the common one I've seen is just a switch on 1 pin on the PPU like so https://gamesx.com/importmod/snes5060.htm
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by TmEE »

From what I remember the mod on 3chip SNES only controls 50/60Hz, it won't affect PAL/NTSC encoding, for that an additional mod will be necessary to override color subcarrier input and encoding mode on the RGB encoder chip.
1chip actually needs a NTSC*6 or PAL*4 clock depending on the region setting so you will get NTSC60 or PAL50, and won't be able to easily get NTSC50 or PAL60.
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Re: Two Ship mode 5 hires + interlaced comparison

Post by lidnariq »

Right. On the 3-chip SNES, there's three total places to specify PAL50 vs NTSC60:

S-PPU1 pin 24
S-PPU2 pin 30
S-RGB/S-ENC/BA6592 pin 19

Because almost nothing supports NTSC50 (why should it), there's rarely reason to rework the color encoding to NTSC.

I don't know what happens if PPU1 and PPU2 are out of sync. (Does it roll? Are backgrounds vertically skewed relative to sprites without rolling? )
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