(Fun) facts about different languages

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aa-dav
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

tepples wrote: Sun Aug 03, 2025 6:06 pm Does it have anything to do with the archaic letter yus, the predecessor of Я (ya)?
It's hard to say for me. AFAIU (I've made some research just right now) nasal vowels in old Russian sounds with little addition of nasal 'n' sound like in 'song'. This does not looks like 'dj'. I cannot remember 'dj' sound in Russian with exceptions of borrowed English words of modern times. English in contrast likes 'dj' sound. "Job, just, jingle, Jeremi, justify, judge..." - so many words with 'dj'!
But in Russian 'Justice' is 'Yousticia' (juridical term).
The letter ʒ (ezh) originates from a z with a tail. It looks like a three and represents the counterpart of Ж (zhe). Incidentally, because Ж looks like two back-to-back K's, it was used as the insignia of the 1990s American hip hop duo Kris Kross.
Russian 'ж' is free from 'd' component. It's just 'zh'. 'Java' is 'Джава' (dzhava) in Russian if we imitate English pronunciation.

In ancient times Russian language didn't have 'f' sound also. But under greek influence got it in old times. There are still no 'f' sound in ancient native words of Russian, but modern Russians do not perceive 'f' sound as something unusual. Greeks gave us alphabet and letter 'f' (Ф). So many international words of ancient times today sounds as truly native.
AFAIK Finnish language also lacks of letter 'f' and self-name of finnish people is 'Suomi'. So, it's also interesting that most common international name of Finnish people is 'unpronounceable' in their language. I used quotas because latter is not true in modern times of cause. Internationalization exists in Finnish too. Just AFAIK 'f' in Finnish is still more rare in comparison with Russian.
Last edited by aa-dav on Tue Aug 05, 2025 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by Pokun »

Swedish is like Russian and the letter "J" represents the sound of "Y" in "yes" ("voiced palatal approximant" as this sound is called). Jupiter is thus pronounced like Youpiter, Java sounds like Yava and John sounds like Yon, though the variant Johan is much more common in Sweden (and here the "H" is pronounced unlike in John/Jon).
There are many other languages using "J" to represent a voiced palatal approximant though and actually IPA picked this letter for that sound, specifically using the lowercase /j/.

Swedish also lacks the Dj-sound (written as /dʒ/ in IPA) like English does (we have the /d/ but not the /ʒ/) and I don't think it's in old Norse either, at least there is no matching rune for it, so yeah it probably came to English via French.

There is no rune for /j/ either though, only /i/ which is close enough, despite being a vowel (/j/ is actually considered a half-vowel consonant), and was possibly used like a /j/. Much like Tokyo is spelled like Tokio in some languages or Ioan vs Joan.
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Bregalad
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

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I belive the J letter is the worst as it has completely different and almost opposite meanings in various languages. Originally the letter J was just a variant of the letter I introduced lately, after roman times (as roman didn't use the letter J). Germanic and slavic languages (with the exception of English) seems to have sticked to this rule that J is a variant of I.

In French, J is used to represent a completely different sound, which is a consonnant (and not a vowyell), which I belive is /ʒ/.
In English, not only it is a consonant, but they also add the `d`to its sound so it's like /dʒ/. I think the equivalent of the french J doesn't exist in English.
In Spanish it sounds like a very harsh "H", almost a "R", so it's a consonant and something else entirely.

This makes it very hard to predict how the "J" is supposed to be pronounced when it is encountered in an unknown word or person name or place name. This makes me almost wish we kept the original latin alphabet.

We have a similar issue with the letter W, which was also introduced in the alphabet after roman times. Some languages like French, German, Polish pronounce it like "V" where it is a consonant. But English pronounce it like a soft "u", where it is a consonant. So when seeing a word with W you have to guess if it is pronounced English-style or German-style which is painful. Heck, even German place names ending in -ow you are not supposed to pronunce the final W, hence the hightmare.
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stan423321
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by stan423321 »

Something close to the sound that's represented in French by "j" is represented in Polish by "ż". But that's not really interesting. The interesting thing is what counts as "ż".

Unusually for Polish alphabet, Latin-ish "z" got two modifications, "ż" and "ź", both theoretically distinguished by a single little glyph above a letter, which is par of the course for languages with a lot of vowel accent marks or something, but sticks out a bit here. "ź" belongs to a whole family of softened consonants with "ć", "ń" and "ś", so it's kinda harder to move. "ż", however, used to be alternately written as a slashed z. I don't remember off hand which was the original.

Nowadays, Wikipedia claims the latter style is archaic. This is, IMHO, an overstatement, but it definitely took a hit. Why? I can only speculate. Most digital fonts intended for normal use generally prefer the dot style since it's easier to arrange a separate dot than a slash line, but the dot style has been popular in print for small letters since Polish was printed. The problem that I see is import of hyperdecorative fonts made for other languages that add slash-like features to all the zs. So unless you know what a slashed z is, you... don't know what it is.

Now you're ready for trying to wrap your head around "Turkish i problem".
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aa-dav
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

stan423321 wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 3:55 am Now you're ready for trying to wrap your head around "Turkish i problem".
Haha! What is why I started topic. :) It was fun to discover.

In Russian there are some troubles with letter "Ё". There are only two russian letters with diacritics: Й and Ё.
Ё is relatively 'new' letters and there are two kind of people: they who use it and they who write is as a base letter 'Е' supposing "native speaker can detect correct letter (restore diacritics and sound) from context".
It's a little liguistic holywar because meanings of separate word without context can be changed greatly.
For example word 'ВСЕ (vse)' (plural 'all' like in 'all of us') vs 'ВСЁ (vsio)' (singular 'all' like in 'all/everything he can do').
Some people call 'Ё' 'letter in exile'.
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by Bregalad »

stan423321 wrote: Thu Aug 07, 2025 3:55 am "ż", however, used to be alternately written as a slashed z. I don't remember off hand which was the original.
[...]
Most digital fonts intended for normal use generally prefer the dot style since it's easier to arrange a separate dot than a slash line, but the dot style has been popular in print for small letters since Polish was printed. The problem that I see is import of hyperdecorative fonts made for other languages that add slash-like features to all the zs. So unless you know what a slashed z is, you... don't know what it is.
For me when using handwriting I always dash the Zs, this avoids the confusion with 2.
Now you're ready for trying to wrap your head around "Turkish i problem".
Which is a relatively modern problem since the latin alphabet was brought in Turkey only in the 1920s! I wonder why they chose to introduce weird elements absent in existing languages using the latin alphabet, such as the dotless i or the dotted I. However, they couldn't anticipate how computer works 50 years before they started to be used intensively in science.
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aa-dav
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

English speaker taking photo makes 'shoot'. This is because of some resemblanse of act of taking photo with gun shooting.
Rusian speaker says '(I'm) pulling off' in this case (снимаю). This is because very very old photo cameras which requred to pull of cover from lens to start process of photo making. There was no trigger, just cover. So, word 'to pull of' now has another meaning in Russian: to take a photo.
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by TmEE »

In Estonian, the photos are being made rather than taken or shot or pulled etc. and often the actual process is called "pildistamine" which roughly translates to "picturefying". Event where the picturefying or filming takes place is photo or video "take" however (fotovõte/videovõte).
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by Pokun »

Swedish just uses the boring "take" (ta) for shooting a photo. Not very exciting, but you can also use "fota" which is the noun "photo" (foto) turned into a verb. For shooting video you mainly use the similar made-up verb "filma".

Bregalad wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:06 am I belive the J letter is the worst as it has completely different and almost opposite meanings in various languages. Originally the letter J was just a variant of the letter I introduced lately, after roman times (as roman didn't use the letter J). Germanic and slavic languages (with the exception of English) seems to have sticked to this rule that J is a variant of I.

In French, J is used to represent a completely different sound, which is a consonnant (and not a vowyell), which I belive is /ʒ/.
In English, not only it is a consonant, but they also add the `d`to its sound so it's like /dʒ/. I think the equivalent of the french J doesn't exist in English.
The /ʒ/ sound does exist in English, there just is no dedicated letter for it. It's the "s" in words like "treasure" /ˈtrɛʒə/ and "pleasure" /ˈplɛʒə/ and the "g" in "beige" /beɪʒ/.

Bregalad wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:06 am In Spanish it sounds like a very harsh "H", almost a "R", so it's a consonant and something else entirely.
This is similar to the Swedish sj-sound (though not identical). Swedish also uses "J" for this sound in some words like "journalist" and "jasmin".
The Swedish sj-sound is the /ɧ/ (voiceless palatal-velar fricative) and the Spanish "J" and "X" are for the /x/ (voiceless velar fricative), so they are both basically the same sound but without the "palatal" element in Spanish (palatal means tongue is moved to the top-front of mouth).

Bregalad wrote: Wed Aug 06, 2025 2:06 am We have a similar issue with the letter W, which was also introduced in the alphabet after roman times. Some languages like French, German, Polish pronounce it like "V" where it is a consonant. But English pronounce it like a soft "u", where it is a consonant. So when seeing a word with W you have to guess if it is pronounced English-style or German-style which is painful. Heck, even German place names ending in -ow you are not supposed to pronounce the final W, hence the nightmare.
As a matter of fact, "V" originates as a variant of "U" just like "J" is to "I", meaning "U" could be used as either the vowel or consonant before "V" developed. "W" is therefore originating in double "U" letters which explains why "W" is called "double-U" in English instead of "double-V" (as is the case in Swedish though).

In runes there is no "V" and the rune representing roman "F" is used instead for both /v/ and /f/ sounds (if the /v/ sound even existed in those languages back then), and some words has changed "V" for "F" or vice versa in Germanic languages. This transformation is shown in English words like "knife" vs "knives" for example.
Runes does have "U" however so maybe that could also have used as a /v/ sound in some cases.

I think Egyptian hieroglyphs also had a character representing V, W and sometimes possibly even U, and with the roman alphabet originating in Egyptian hieroglyphs that may be the origin to the letter "U".
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

Another thing which was interesting for me in English is single word 'to spell' with the meaning 'clarify pronunciation or written form of the word letter-by-letter'. Russian just has no one word for this complex idea.
Yep, this is because all these nuances with "We write Manchester and we read Liverpool".
The environment dictates the language.

Russian is extremly simple: there are almost no exceptions in conversion between writings and speech.
However it's not as simple as 'every spoken word has one written form only'. No. In fact there are many options of writings, but they all will result in the same spoken word.
So the base rule is simple: you should 'compress' word to minimal count of letters. And this will be it's written form with accuracy of 99,9%.
A few exceptions exists with foreign words, however.
For example in word 'yogurt' (ЙОГУРТ) first two vowels for no reason are not compressed to single letter Ё 'ЁГУРТ'. Half of russian vowel letters are 'compressed' variants with implied 'Й' ('y' in 'yes') sound before open syllable or 'softener' of previous consonant in closed syllables. All consonants are by default 'hard' in writings, but this can be changed by 'softener' vowel or 'soft sign' 'Ь' (which doesn't have sound) placed after it.
So ТЬОЛКА (t'olka) sounds the same as 'ТЁЛКА' - with soft t and this differs from 'ТОЛКА' (tolka) with hard t. To prevent softening 'hard sign' 'Ъ' is used and (non-existent) word ТЪЁЛКА sounds with hard t but 'j/y' sound before О and this makes big difference.
Anyway all these rules are dominant and doesn't allow mispelling in 99,9% cases.
So, Russians have no need in single word 'to spell'. Several words are used to say this idea in specific conditions (high noise or high importance of correct spelling).
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by Pokun »

"To spell" isn't used to clarify pronunciation though, it's only for clarifying how a particular word is composed using letters regardless of how it's pronounced. It's of course not commonly used in a medium where we communicate using text, like an internet forum, mainly only in speech.

Oh but I see, you mean that Russian is very consistently pronouncing letters independently like I talked in my first post in the thread:
Pokun wrote: Wed Jul 23, 2025 5:29 pm Swedish is mostly pronouncing every letter independently, but there are many exceptions to that rule and several letters in the Latin alphabet would be redundant for Swedish.
...
Then of course some letters are combined to form sounds not having their own dedicated letter such as "NG" the same nasal sound found in many other languages, "TJ" or "SH" which both are similar to English "SH" and the infamous Swedish "SJ" sound [ɧ] which is pretty unique.

I think Finish is even more consistent in pronouncing letters independently and Japanese is extremely consistent with the pronunciation of kana. The only exceptions are the particles "wa" and "e" which are written with the kana character for "ha" and "he" respectively as that is how they originally were pronounced.
Though some syllables do change when combined with others, such as the "NG" or "NK" which both turns the "N" into voiced velar nasal [ŋ] like in almost any other language.
So in Swedish you can often say "it spells like it sounds" when a word is consistently relying on the individual pronunciation of each letter without weird spelling rules or exceptions. I never heard that in English because spelling rules are so much more context-sensitive, which is because of a lack of spelling revolutions for getting rid of obsolete spelling constructions in the history of English.

Now, Japanese doesn't really have spelling rules, because when writing using kana (phonetic characters) everything is spelled as it sounds (except for those very few exceptions mentioned above), but to compensate for that it has kanji (Chinese characters). Knowing what kanji to use to write a particular word is causing at least as much headache and there are a lot more you need to memorize compared to more or less consistent spelling rules of written languages like that of English or French (both which has a lot of exceptions to their spelling rules). Kanji is both a blessing and a curse.


Russian phonology seems similarly easy and fun to learn to Japanese phonology which is extremely simple with relatively very few phonemes (a phoneme is a language's smallest phonetic building block that holds meaning, in Japanese that would be represented in writing by each kana).

The "Ё" (/jo/) letter in Russian just being a shorthand for "ЙО" (/j/ + /o/) seems similarly redundant to the "X" in languages like Swedish where it's a shorthand for "KS". You save one letter, but it's an inconsistency.
Same thing with "Е" (/je/), "Ю" (/ju/) and "Я" (/ja/). And BTW, "Ю" looks almost Korean!

"Ь" is described as a palatalizer of the previous consonant, meaning you put the tongue in the top-front of the mouth during articulation. I see know what you mean by hard and soft consonants (non-palatalized and palatalized respectively), and this just made Russian phonology much more complicated and effectively doubled the consonant sounds. :)
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

Pokun wrote: Wed Jul 23, 2025 5:29 pm The "Ё" (/jo/) letter in Russian just being a shorthand for "ЙО" (/j/ + /o/) seems similarly redundant to the "X" in languages like Swedish where it's a shorthand for "KS". You save one letter, but it's an inconsistency.
Yeah, I wrote it in first page of topic: Russian alphabet looks like where are twice more vowels (almost every vowel has 'Й*' counterpart), but in fact it's quite opposite: there are (almost) twice more consonants and 'shorthand' vowels in fact are used as 'palatalizers' also to keep count of letters at 33.
For example word ''ПЛЮЁТ" ((he) spits). Without 'redundant' vowels we can write it as 'ПЛЬУЙОТ' (PL'UYOT, where L' is 'palatized' and O is preceded by J/Y).
Letter 'Ю' here is transformed to 'ЬУ' (palatazer in closed syllable) and letter 'Ё' to 'ЙО' (shortener in open syllable).
So, general rule for Й*-otted letters is: they become Ь* if are preceeded by consonant and Й* in other cases.

Something abou 20 years ago there were memetic movement on the Russian internet which uses such 'decompressed' writings in posts stating what this is 'albanic language'.

Also where are few exeptions howerer: letter Ш has it's palatized counterpart in alphabet and it is Щ. And letter/sound Ч (ch) just doen't have palatized counterpart in speech. And letter/sound Ж (zh) doesn't have UNpalatized counterpart in speech.
It's also was interesting for me what in English sound 'sh' is something between Ш and Щ. Semi-soft Ш or semi-hard Щ. Usually we convert 'sh' in international words to 'Ш', but this is not perfect thing.
Letter 'Щ' is often transliterated in English texts as 'scht' like it БОРЩ -> borscht. It's absurd for Russians as it looks like 'СЧТ' - it is combination of letter we do not use at all. Last letter in 'БОРЩ' soup is just palatazed 'sh'. But maybe it's influence of another slavic language. So, 'borsh' is more clear how to pronounce - English speaker already has taken a half step to pronounce last letter authentically, just a little bit more compression around tongue are needed.
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by Pokun »

Yeah and now I know what you meant.


Spelling БОРЩ as BORSCHT is confusing since there isn't a T sound in there. According to wikipedia the Щ is [ɕː] which is just a prolonged [ɕ] (the colon-like sign "ː" means a long sound in IPA) and [ɕ] is pretty much what SH sounds like in English so it would make more sense to write it BORSHSH or BORSHH or something, even just BORSH would probably be closer.

In Swedish it's written as BORSJTJ which is possibly even more confusing. The TJ is basically [ɕ] but SJ usually represents the dreaded sj-sound [ɧ] which I'd guess doesn't exist in Russian or Ukrainian. Besides combining both SJ and TJ is normally not a thing and since it's a foreign word it makes you believe the letters are to be pronounced individually which makes for a painful combination of consonants that probably doesn't exist in any of the mentioned language of this thread.
Or maybe the J is there to indicate palatalization? But why are there two Js in that case?
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aa-dav
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by aa-dav »

To say the truth if text-to-speech in Russian is 100% accurate, but speech-to-text has several problems most of which are due to 'fluent speech' and wish to save muscle force.
One of such things is reducing clear and loud 'СЧ' (s-ch) letters to single 'Щ' sound. For example word 'СЧЁТ' (schjot (counting)) in fluent speech will be pronounced as 'щот' (sh'ot). In reality these are clearly distinctive sounds, but they really has very same articulation positions of mouth and tongue. It's like two sounds 'S-CH' were melted, leveled and released in one breath.
Maybe this fact has some relations with 'SCHt' in 'borscht'. But anyway I do not know what 't' does here.
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Re: (Fun) facts about different languages

Post by tepples »

Wikipedia claims that letter Щ (shcha) represents a long /ɕː/ (as in "fresh sherry") in Russian, /ʃt͡ʃ/ (as in "fresh cheese") in Ukrainian and Rusyn (and in Russian prior to a fairly recent sound change), and /ʃt/ (as in "borscht") in Bulgarian. Belarusian retains the spelling ШЧ which reflects the current Ukrainian and former Russian pronunciation. Polish spells its corresponding sound szcz as in Szczepan, the local variant of "Stephen", which hints that the sound was /st/ before one of the older historical palatalizations in Slavic.