NES Dev Collaborative Fighting Game

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Which type of fighting game would you rather see come to fruition?

Poll ended at Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:16 am

Big fighters (think Street Fighter style)
9
56%
Smaller fighters (think Smash Bros style)
7
44%
 
Total votes: 16

tepples
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Post by tepples »

Celius wrote:We'd have to minimize this, obviously. a 6x9 character would take 5400 different tiles according to that math
True, based on the upper bound of 54 tiles per frame. But a lot of the area of a character will be the blank tile, so I'll assume 32 to 42 tiles, which would fit 3 to 4 frames into each 2 KiB CHR page. So for a game with eight fighters, you'd have about 48 to 64 KiB of CHR per fighter, or the majority of a 512 KiB CHR ROM. But then Kart Fighter was half this because it used only about 2 frames per animation.

But then the sheer amount of data also shows an advantage of a platform fighter over a Street Fighter style system. There's a reason that Street Fighter 2010 had nothing to do with Street Fighter.
Celius
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Post by Celius »

Sorry, I don't really know what to write, but it's a shame to see this project go to waste, so, uh, bump.
Roth
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Post by Roth »

For me, it's not going to waste, for sure! I'm in the midst of finishing up alot of other projects that I have going on. I planned on bumping this topic up as well, but I was going to wait until said projects were polished off. I am glad to see that it's still in the minds of others : )
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

100% agree with Celius, and yeah I don't know what to say. Roth you are the project's founder so it's up to you to do something (and please do something !). If you don't want to for any personal reason then please say it straight.
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Petruza
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Post by Petruza »

Hi, sorry for not helping the continuity of this thread, but, I'm a c programmer and cannot help very much with asm coding, but I can contribute with pixel art.
Hope to see this project realized.
UncleSporky
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Post by UncleSporky »

I know I essentially have no place talking here, being a lurker/newbie, but as a person who has done some pixel work before I wanted to comment on the large sprites vs. small sprites issue.

It's true that individual pixels matter more on small sprites than on large ones, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. On a smaller scale, our eyes fill in the blanks more and we "see" something greater than the sum of its parts (which is really just a couple of colored dots). As the resolution gets higher, we get closer to actual drawn lines making up an image, at which point it becomes more difficult to just suggest something rather than explicitly drawing it.

Look at Ryu here:

Image

It's cool to have bigger sprites, but the main reason of doing so is to also include more detail. It's true that you don't have to worry as much about how many pixels his nose has, but now you have to pay more attention to the folds of his clothes and the highlights on his muscles. You also will want access to more colors in more places, or it'll end up looking more monochromatic and bland. Also notice techniques like anti-aliasing on Ryu's edges; these things become more necessary as you scale up.

Essentially, your drawing, animating and coloring talents matter much more because now people can see it.

I also think space limitations are going to come into effect more than has been previously thought. How much freedom are your artists going to be allowed? NES era artists were always very conscious of the NES's limitations, and with good reason. You very commonly see squished or squared off images to keep things inside the boxes or at the edge of a color change. I think you'd be hard pressed to find a good artist who is aware of and able to function with the necessary restrictions.

Here's a really big NES drawing:

Image

Not horrible, but clearly drawn with strict guidelines. Any awkwardness might be partially attributed to drawing ability as mentioned above. It might also be due to the grid, or it may be a bit of both. Every bit of fleshtone in those faces fits perfectly into a rectangle, and you can bet the space from the top of the eyebrows to the bottom of his nose is carefully calculated. Everything is specially placed to allow for the most solid color tiles possible. It's a big picture, but there's no detail. It looks like a coloring book.

Image

Similarly here, you can see how Piston's arms have been forced into the rectangle. Notice the perfect horizontal line at the bottom of his gloves. And even with as few characters and frames as Punch Out has, they were carefully designed to have reusable mix-n-match body parts. Again, it's just line art filled in.

Is that sort of art good enough, or do you want it to look more like a real 90's fighting game?

Is it ok to just erase a guy's arm and then draw it straight out and call that a punch frame? If the artist wants to animate it realistically, are you going to tell him you don't think the lower body should move at all in order to save frames? If the artist draws the character's face two pixels out of the grid, is that acceptable or do they need to be shaved off? It all depends on how good you want it to look, and this should be considered in advance. Larger sprites are very tempting to trim for the programmer, and you need to decide early what you will and won't do. Smaller sprites are less of a concern here since the whole picture is crucial to the pose.

I am not trying to be discouraging, I just think these things should be thought through carefully. It's possible to make a great game with large or small sprites, but depending on how you do it things may be needlessly difficult. I understand well that anyone posting here would not deterred by the difficulty of something, but it may not be a type of difficulty that you're used to.

Personally I think the best idea is to scale down a little without going down to Mario size sprites. Keep it smaller than the max and your program is extensible. If you end up with space for three extra frames for each character, hey, that's one more special move per person, or some extra portraits and background art.

Also consider that if, for example, you shave off the top row of tiles from a proposed 6x9 tile fighter and make them 6x8 instead, that's 3 sprite tiles per fighter of extra colors. Is more height or more details more important?

On a different note, in terms of what I might offer, here's a guy I made. Single sprite overlaid for eyes.

Image

Yes, he is somewhat naked.

But I don't know how much I could volunteer to this considering I am mainly here now to learn the programming side of things. :P
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

I know I essentially have no place talking here
No everyone have a place talking here and that was very interesting.

Now that you mention it Honda's harms doesn't looks very good, but before I read this post I never noticed it altough I've fought him a few times. If there is a few imperfections only the pixel artits are likely to see I mean it doesn't matter.

It's true there is a lot of deatail in Ryu's sprite, notably the highlight of his muscles and of his pants which are very well done. But are they THAT hard to do ? Instead of doing a traditional straight shadow lines you randomly make them going into the surface and with some experiment unless you find something, it will likely look great. Or am I completely wrong ? (sorry it's hard to explain what I have in mind in english)

I think details matter on "stand" frames because they are likely to be viewed by the player. But they matter much less in attack frames because they are viewed fastly in sequence, and if there is arms that are cut off, or details in pant's highlight that doesn't look right, for a few fractions of a second, the player will most likely NOT see anything anormal.
To have good animation it is needed that motion is shown. For example instead of just "moving" the arm, there should be a pitcure of the arm actually moving in between (that would more look like a big white slash from the old position to the new), so that it looks much better. Fire Emblem GBA games does that and it looks awesome.
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Petruza
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Post by Petruza »

Just a rough draft.
It lacks some detail as UncleSporky noted.
But hey, he has clothes on.
The pants could have some shade of gray. not the jacket though, as it has a lot of skin surrounding it.
Hey it's a lot of work making pixel art with 3 colors.

Image

Image

Image
Celius
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Post by Celius »

The trick (in my mind) to making really good pixel art for the NES is choosing the right colors. Black is essential, as you can use it in combination with any other color to make various shades of that color with dithering tricks. White is pretty great too, as it acts as the very brightest of all colors. However most of the time you don't have enough room for both black and white (leaving you with only one other color), so black takes higher priority.

In this portrait (I know you said it was a rough draft), many things could be done to make it look lots better. First of all, it seems to use 3 different palettes: Black, Skin, White; Brown, Skin, White; and Brown, Black, White. This isn't very efficient, as you'd have one palette left. I would either eliminate brown from the 4 colors used by the sprite, or I'd add 2 more colors to it including brown. So if it's using 4 colors, that means at least 2 palettes, so you're using 4/6 colors, which gives you 2 unused colors. If it's only using 3 colors, it's just using 1 palette. This is more than possible to pull off with this sprite.

The pants would need shading with dithering, and so would the arms. Otherwise, it's a decent outline/rough draft. But the pants really need some dynamic.
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

Here you are what would be technically possible with only one palette :
Image
Of course the face doesn't look very good and would need absolutely more colors, but other than that with better colors it can look much better than what one could think at first.

That's what most GBC games did in it's late life, people weren't used to pixel art any longer so most developper converted images from a higher resolution.
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Celius
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Post by Celius »

Make the orange skin tone, maybe keep the brown (otherwise make it black), and make the lightest shade white. I think you'll have a decent nintedoization.
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Petruza
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Post by Petruza »

Bergalad, I think that that type of conversion, at least the example you posted, looks too much like monochrome.

Celius: About palettes, you're right I used too many palettes.
But I think now, that we could use up to 2 palettes for each character, because you know there won't be more than two fighters in the screen at the same time. So palette data could be switched from fight to fight to match the players'.

I saw some homebrew/pirated street fighter games for NES which had graphics very similar to this one.

This is how it'll look scaled down to 6x8 tiles. not bad. ( 6th column could as well be gone )

Image
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Bregalad
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Post by Bregalad »

at least the example you posted, looks too much like monochrome.
I guess the secret to making good graphics is to draw them as monochrome, and then add color afterwards. If you turn an image to monochrome, you'll likely reconize it. If you preserve colors but make all the same lightning level, you will most likely not reconize anything. The proof is here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSL_and_HSV Look at the image in the middle of the article, when they removed the 'L' componant, nothing is reconizable.

Oh and the stauration is always on maximum on the NES because of the palette itself, so it doesn't even enter into consideration.

That said, after drawing a monochrome image, you'd still want it to look good colored, and that's why you should use tricks like Celius said.

BTW I belive there is already a Gameboy version of SF2 which features low resulution and monochrome fighters. Also it does everything with background so that the sprites could get 4 colors + transparent, which isn't possible with sprites. Obviously the graphics were originally drawn for the SNES and scaled down for the Gameboy.
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tepples
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Post by tepples »

Petruza wrote:Celius: About palettes, you're right I used too many palettes.
But I think now, that we could use up to 2 palettes for each character, because you know there won't be more than two fighters in the screen at the same time.
And any projectile attack would have to use one of those palettes. Remember that Ryu from Super Street Fighter II can throw both blue and orange fireballs.
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Post by UncleSporky »

Looks like you get the best result by color reducing first and then resizing, unless Petruza did some other modifications. I did mine the opposite way and it's not as pretty. With dithering and without:

Image Image

Those are just 6x9 tiles, but you also have to remember you get a lot of weird shaped sprites and have to keep the scale the same (in Ryu's case, hes 77.7% size of his SNES resolution):

Image

(I'm getting all these from here by the way)

I know the point here isn't to pick apart another fighter's sprites, but perhaps a full set of Street Fighter 2 animations reduced for NES would be good for coding the engine with.

By the way, I'm not well versed on attribute tables yet, but isn't it true that background palettes are limited to 2x2 tile chunks? That makes it harder to use multiple palettes effectively.

Also remember that there have been some successful 4 color fighting games with a nice style:

Image Image Image

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