To the designer of the PowerPak...

Xious · Post by **Xious** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:18 am

I don't know if he reads this forum, but if the guy who designed the PowerPak is lurking about, I have a question:

Would you be willing to custom-make a PowerPak for the Famicom in a Famicom cartridge body? Or sell the parts to do so with a diagram?

I'd rather have a dedicated "PowerPak FC" than use a bulky adapter setup...

It's something to consider offfering regularly too, for the Famicom crowd.

-Xious

tokumaru · Post by **tokumaru** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:55 am

He reads these boards and posts here, yes. I doubt he will consider making a Famicom version of the PowerPak in small quantities, as that would require a whole new board because of the different connector, and I doubt designing/making new boards is easy/cheap. If he believes that there is a demand for it he might consider, who knows, but I wouldn't count on it.

I guess this is the best place to say that you'd be interested in such a product, maybe other people who own Famicom consoles will do it too.

ccovell · Post by **ccovell** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:00 am

I think Japanese gamers would eat up a Famicom PowerPak, but it would have to get distribution/promotion in Japanese gaming mags or on gaming sites. (Japanese people are not really devourers of English-language news or gaming sites.)

Besides FDS mapper failures and NSF player oddities, my PowerPak works pretty well with a Famicom Titler & adaptor setup.

Cheesemeister · Post by **Cheesemeister** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 9:14 am

Game backup devices were recently outlawed in Japan due to a lobbying effort by the video game industry to combat sales of R4 cards for the DS.

Post by **tepples** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:15 pm

Cheesemeister wrote:Game backup devices were recently outlawed in Japan

Wouldn't outlawing a copier with specific support for homebrew (namely DLDI autopatching) be like outlawing PCs? PCs can be used to back up PC games. Otherwise, I'd need to read a reliable translation of the Japanese law on which this ruling was based.

Xious · Post by **Xious** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 6:23 am

I'm sure it depends greatly on how it is marketed. Heck, he could try to license it to Nintendo for them to sell, pre-loaded with games.

Frankly, enforcing such a law would be tricky at best, especially for the import/export market.

I would still be interested in either having one custom-built (I am willing to pay for time and materials on this...I don’t expect it to be the same price as the NES PowerPak) or in purchasing the parts and a wiring diagram for them to build it myself.

I am capable of designing and masking a board if I have pinouts for all the parts. I'd really rather not have to reverse-engineer a PowerPak, de-solder it all and re-solder it to a new board...but if that's what it takes, then so be it.

If I can make a solid logic board design and crank out some cases, maybe he'd license me to crank out a run of them.

-Xious

Today's interesting quote: "Being able to speak a spattering of words in a dozen languages does not make me a polyglot. It simply means that I can insult you using words that you don't understand, leaving you confused and wanting for more." - Me

tepples wrote:
Cheesemeister wrote:Game backup devices were recently outlawed in Japan
Wouldn't outlawing a copier with specific support for homebrew (namely DLDI autopatching) be like outlawing PCs? PCs can be used to back up PC games. Otherwise, I'd need to read a reliable translation of the Japanese law on which this ruling was based.

MottZilla · Post by **MottZilla** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:31 am

It already won't fit a standard FC Cart Case, so you could make a Famicom version just by make your own case with an edge adapter on it. What you are talking about is just silly.

Plus have you just thought of plugging the PowerPAK into your Famicom as-is with an adapter? Playing NES games on a Famicom is nothing new or expensive...

kyuusaku · Post by **kyuusaku** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:05 pm

FC carts can grow upwards though.

Basically you're looking at:

-FPGA
-3x SRAM
-flashrom
-voltage regulator
-oscillator
-boot circuit (4x? 74 series)
-CF slot
-pullups

If I were to make another PowerPak, there are too many things to change (to reduce part count/size, price and enhance functionality) so I'd probably just start from scratch.

crade · Post by **crade** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:11 pm

tepples wrote:
Cheesemeister wrote:Game backup devices were recently outlawed in Japan
Wouldn't outlawing a copier with specific support for homebrew (namely DLDI autopatching) be like outlawing PCs? PCs can be used to back up PC games. Otherwise, I'd need to read a reliable translation of the Japanese law on which this ruling was based.

Are you perhaps thinking of the anti-circumvention laws japan put in recently? Would the Ciclone chip perhaps break these laws by circumventing the licensing chip?

At any rate, the lobyists laws usually get around these sort of problems by using
"principle function" or
"only limited commercially significant purpose for use other than"

Edit:
Sorry, forgot famicoms don't even have the licensing chip do they

bunnyboy · Post by **bunnyboy** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:29 pm

Based on sales of all of my other projects, Japan is not nearly a big enough market for the huge cost. I have sold far more of every product to Norway than Japan. Just the plastic case mold alone would be ~$4K, and I wouldn't expect to sell more than 25 over the lifetime of the product above what normal PowerPaks would sell. Is a pin adapter worth $200+ extra?

Banshaku · Post by **Banshaku** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 5:50 pm

Then I guess if you could somehow sell the adapter at the same time you buy the powerpak (like the extra options for the snes one) then maybe that would close the discussion, isn't it?

Xious · Post by **Xious** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 12:52 pm

Insofar as the case, I have a friend with one of those 3D plastic printers (3D modeling plastic layer-based sculptor), so if I render a case in Lightwave, he can knock them out for me a couple at a time.

I also know someone that can do plastic moulding (he does repro tail lamps for classic cars), so a production part later on is not a problem either. Paying $4,000 in tooling is outrageous...I hope you don’t go that route in the future, as although your red cases look cool, that's a huge upfront expense that nobody needs.

There is no reason it can’t be a tall cart: there were many production carts that were quite tall, even double-height, but are still genuine Famicom games. I will have to examine the board to see how to do a layout either in a tighter space or on a double-sided board.

How many layers is the PowerPak logic board at present?

As to the comment about having few Japanese customers, well, that's quite logical. Few people in Japan have an NES: they own Famicom consoles, and of those who own a Famicom, maybe 0.05% of them have an NES adapter.

Maybe I'll wind up going the route of building an adapter card and designing a different case, and if I do so, I might sell those as a combination product. I know it’s easy-peasy to make adapters, but it's time consuming to do so for large quantities, so if I decide to make a production design, I'd want it to be something special.

I'd probably make a base-colour cart and have them electroplated (like the U.S.A. 1st-release Zelda cartridge) to start out, as that would make them attractive without having to pay for the moulding of a custom case in the beginning. I have many industrial contacts, so none of that is difficult.

Assuming I do go for it, I will want to either buy the PowerPak assembled logic boards in batches of increasing quantity or but the FPGAs in quantity and build the boards especially for this product. Would you be amicable to either option, or am I going to have to buy them retail?

I would be happy to work out an agreement with you for resale, sales/distribution, or licensing. If you would rather sell my adapter & case with a finished board from you in your own store (RetroUSB.com I presume), I am also happy to form some sort of agreement in that direction.

Unfortunately, I don't see anywhere to buy finished adapter modules anymore, except in boxed systems from China. The Japanese dealers don't stock them *at all*. Kevin at Rising said they are rather uncommon in Nippon: Of course! They have little need of adapters, as the game library over there consists of 99.99% of the American library plus 1,500 games.

Does anybody know a source to buy them in (small) quantities, such as ten to twenty at a time?

One of the reasons this is of great interest to me is simply to get more play use out of my Famicom over the NES, and to tinker with games that use the EXP port on the FC. I'm sure I can come up with other uses, but it'd be cool to run one on my Twin in addition to the NES without it looking like a wart or cancerous growth.

The idea of the PowerPak is simply elegant, and seeing it flipped backwards, attached to a riser card that if you sneeze on (or if you pull too mightily on one of the controllers) will jar it enough to cause the system to crash (because a NES game attached to said riser card is mightily top-heavy) is an unpleasing sight.

I prefer to have a good balance between engineering logistics and physical aesthetics in all of my designs. It's hard to achieve, but the PowerPak does a lovely job of it.

It's probably the singular coolest piece of Retrogaming hardware to come out, ever...

-Xious

Super-Hampster · Post by **Super-Hampster** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 12:56 am

By riser card I assume you mean this:

http://www.jandar.net/famiconv/

If so, I found this:

http://www.videogameall.com/nes-accesso ... apter.html

It has a plastic case. Might hold up better when you sneeze on it

Great Hierophant · Post by **Great Hierophant** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:42 am

Super-Hampster wrote:By riser card I assume you mean this:

http://www.jandar.net/famiconv/

If so, I found this:

http://www.videogameall.com/nes-accesso ... apter.html

It has a plastic case. Might hold up better when you sneeze on it

The Family Converter, despite its flaws, does work with a PowerPak. I also had a Yobo 72-60 Pin converter, and it did not. The reason why is because it connected pins 48 & 49 on the Famicom connector. Since almost all games connect these two pins on their cartridge connectors, so did earlier NOACs. However, games and hardware (including the PowerPak) that use advanced mirroring hardware require the pins to be separated. The second option would be a great replacement for the first, but only if it did separate the signals.

peppers · Post by **peppers** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:28 am

easy enough to cut the trace right? seems like a simple fix