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[Apparently continues this topic]


By now every single one of you should know that I'm crazy about the classic Sonic the Hedgehog games for the Mega Drive / Genesis (S1 to S&K) and a few ones on the Master System (don't really care for anything made from '98 onwards). In fact I learned to program back in '97 because I wanted to make my own Sonic game (something that sadly hasn't happened yet).

Anyway, I'm currently building a platform engine for the NES capable of doing everything one would expect from a classic Sonic game, a kind of mix between the Master System and Mega Drive titles. The problem is that I don't own Sonic, so I can't just use him as if he was mine.

I know there are tons of fangames featuring Sonic and his friends, but I want to make something I can call "mine" without fearing that the owners of Sonic will someday give me a hard time about my game. I also want to have the option of selling the game (I'd still provide a ROM somehow), something I most certainly can't if I use someone else's character.

Since the gaming industry is full of clones of other games, I guess it should be safe for me to draw inspiration from the Sonic universe while making an original game. If several companies can make games about strong guys walking down the street kicking and punching people without anyone saying they are ripping off each other, I guess I can make a game about an anthropomorphic animal that runs and spins really fast as long as that animal isn't Sonic, right?

So I came up with my own character, and he's a cat. I love cats, so that was the most logical choice. Yes, there are cats in Sonic's universe, but I don't care about them because they belong to the new games. Here's a picture of my character (haven't decided on the name yet):



So, let me know what you guys think about this. Is there anyone else facing a dilemma because they want to pay homage to their favorite games? How much do you think we have to change an idea so that it's not considered stealing anymore?

Since the gaming industry is full of clones of other games, I guess it should be safe for me to draw inspiration from the Sonic universe while making an original game. If several companies can make games about strong guys walking down the street kicking and punching people without anyone saying they are ripping off each other, I guess I can make a game about an anthropomorphic animal that runs and spins really fast as long as that animal isn't Sonic, right?

Yes this is right.

So I came up with my own character, and he's a cat. I love cats, so that was the most logical choice. Yes, there are cats in Sonic's universe, but I don't care about them because they belong to the new games. Here's a picture of my character (haven't decided on the name yet):

Oh it wasn't sonic on this picture ? I really trough it was until I read that but I'm not a fan of Sega at all so I'm not used to see him. He looks cool anyway so as long as you don't explicitly call him "sonic" and that his sprites aren't ripped from an existing game it will be legal.

I think there is games that are blatant rip-off of others, like Rad Racer was a rip-off of some sega game, and there was a C64 game "Giana Sisters" or something that was so ripped of SMB that they had to cancel the game, and this makes carts (or was it disks ?) of the game extremely rare.

PS : Also just like you I've always been learning to programing my own games since the age of ~11. At first I wanted to rip existing games but at ~14 when I really learned serious programming I wanted to make a Final Fantasy clone, but without ripping anything from Final Fantasy. I still want to do that (on the NES) and still haven't released any "simpler" games

So I think it's normal that as a kid you want to rip off games, and later you actually want to create your own stuff without ripping anything.

Bregalad wrote:Oh it wasn't sonic on this picture ?

I know you are not into Sonic but... well, anyone should at least be familiar with the 3 trademark spikes on his back, which my character clearly doesn't have. And my character is, well, purple, while Sonic is blue.

I'm not a fan of Sega at all

I'm not a fan of SEGA either. Specially considering what they have been doing to Sonic for the last several years. I'm not a big fan of Nintendo either, I just happen to like one of theirs consoles very much, and most of the games I like aren't even made by them. I'm not loyal to companies, because they are usually not loyal to the fans of their products.

He looks cool anyway so as long as you don't explicitly call him "sonic" and that his sprites aren't ripped from an existing game it will be legal.

I never intended to rip anything from anywhere, even when I was decided to make a game with Sonic himself. I don't feel good about using other people's work.

there was a C64 game "Giana Sisters" or something that was so ripped of SMB that they had to cancel the game

Yeah, changing the main character wasn't enough for them. But apparently they kept everything *except* the main character, so that's probably the reason.

So I think it's normal that as a kid you want to rip off games, and later you actually want to create your own stuff without ripping anything.

When I started programming I spent hours looking for graphics to rip using emulators. That is indeed in the past, but my desire to make a true Sonic game remains. Maybe it's stronger than ever, since SEGA has disappointed me several times with games that have nothing of what I like, my wish to see a game with the elements I do like just grows stronger.

Here is an idea... Release a free fan game that is just a NES version of a pre-existing sonic game to showcase your engine and get the interest of Sonic fans. Then sell a new game that is more than a Sonic clone, but has new features never seen before in a sonic game and can be veiwed as an original/novel appoarch to that genre. There have been plenty of sonic imitators (Bubsy, Speedy Gonzales, ect...) but they all failed to capture what made sonic fun and failed introduce anything new to the genre.

Personally I would not be interested in buying something that is simply a clone of sonic, but I would gladly pay for something that takes a fresh spin on Sonic. I would also rather not have a downloadable rom of the game released till some time has passed or a sequel is made (A free rom download could be used to advertise the sequel )

P.S. Plus a free NES sonic game should please those not willing or able to buy a new NES game :p

Well sorry I really don't know much how Sonic looks but I know he's blue with big eyes and your character is purple with big eyes so it definitely looks similar but that don't make him a rip-off tough. I never owned any sega console and I never played any game featuring sonic so I really know nothing about him.

And yes of course if you come with your own protagonist but rip everything else it's still ripping. But as long as you don't rip anything, there is really nothing to worry about - they can own sonic and related characters, but they don't own game physics, or a gameplay system. Even if those two looks really close to Sonic games - that would not make your game a sonic game. Also I suspect Sonic to has started as a rip off of Mario games in the first place (but I might be completely wrong).

Maybe it's stronger than ever, since SEGA has disappointed me several times with games that have nothing of what I like, my wish to see a game with the elements I do like just grows stronger.

I don't know about Sonic, but what you are saying applies to the vast majority of game series, and also comics series too. No matter how great it is, it almost always end up decaying and becoming a piece of shit.

This can be easily seen with Final Fantasy games, which I'm a great fan of. The recently released FF13 on PS3 looks amazing graphically (that's a good thing) but the gameplay isn't quite Final Fantasy looking anymore (that's not a good thing) altough I think it's still much better than the previously releaed FF12 on PS2. The only series which have never decayed since the NES is the Catlevania series. Almost all games in the series are masterpieces, and this still applies to games released recently. Altough there is still black sheeps in the series, I think mostly of Game Boy's Casltevania titles which are mediocre at best, but still had very awesome music like all CV games have.

Personally I would not be interested in buying something that is simply a clone of sonic, but I would gladly pay for something that takes a fresh spin on Sonic. I would also rather not have a downloadable rom of the game released till some time has passed or a sequel is made (A free rom download could be used to advertise the sequel )

You know there is people on this forum that don't think only about money and advertisement. We are nes developpers, not buisness managers. But we already debated arround this and I don't want this again.

I don't follow. What is wrong with advertising or selling? I am all for things that breath new life into the NES. For instance there is Pier Solar. This game has renewed many ppl's interest in the Genesis and ppl have even been buying Sega CDs and Genesis' in order to play this game. I ordered Pier Solar the instant preorders were available. Tokumaru expressed an interest in selling his game and I think he has the skills and talents to help boost interest in an old system for the average joe (Buying a ROM download doesn't really help boost interest in the original system as much as they boost interest in emulation).

If we truly love an old system, we should support any endeavors that could help "bring back" interest in our beloved system.

P.S. There was also Battle Kid, but I think that game was a bit too frustrating to interest the average joe. A sonicesque game should interest the average joe/casual retro gamer.

HJRodrigo wrote:I don't follow. What is wrong with advertising or selling?

I agree, but some others might not. GNU-tards are OK with selling copies, possibly bundled with online game server access or other kinds of support, but not with restricting the ability of anyone who buys a copy to make and sell more copies.

(Buying a ROM download doesn't really help boost interest in the original system as much as they boost interest in emulation).

Agreed. If you want to make a game that runs in an emulator, make it in XNA Game Studio. XNA runs on the CLR, an emulator developed as part of the .NET Framework.

As to the original question: There have been funny animal platformers with cats on Nintendo platforms before, such as Felix the Cat and Rockin' Kats* for NES and (as HJRodrigo mentioned) Bubsy for Super NES. As long as the eyes in your character's art style don't scream Sonic universe, there shouldn't be a problem. Maybe you could have the cats wear shirts like in Animal Crossing to distract Sega's lawyers even more.

Or speaking of Animal Crossing, maybe you could have a blue hedgehog that looks more like the Able sisters. At the bottom of this screenshot, to the left of the female human, is Mabel Able.


* aka "Bionic Commando for kids"

Fixed my previous post, now both sides can be pleased

I wouldnt say your current character is a rip off right now...but I do think its stil too similair to sonic to be "kosher"The shoes for one make him look like sonic alot....maybe like someone here said...you should have him wear a shirt.

Well when it comes to rip offs... I can't even imagine how much money the "creators" of Hello Kitty won by simply blatantly ripping off Musti.

I think the "legal" part depends on where you are.
I think in Canada and the US, you can get away with "parody" as a way of expressing your fan appreciation. You just have to make sure you are parody-ing and not just copying.


Al

Bregalad wrote:I can't even imagine how much money the "creators" of Hello Kitty won by simply blatantly ripping off Musti.

But how much did Musti copy from Miffy? And how much did Alice from Balloon Kid copy from Hello Kitty?

HJRodrigo wrote:Release a free fan game that is just a NES version of a pre-existing sonic game to showcase your engine and get the interest of Sonic fans. Then sell a new game that is more than a Sonic clone, but has new features never seen before in a sonic game and can be veiwed as an original/novel appoarch to that genre.

Hum... The problem with that idea is that the engine is just part of a game. To actually clone a Sonic game I'd have to draw all the graphics, make all the music and code all the enemies/objects, only to have the same amount of work later for my own game.

It would still be two games, even if they share the basic engine, and that would be a lot of work. It's been 5 years since I actively got into NESDEV and I haven't finished a single game, I can only imagine what will happen if I suddenly decide to make two! =)

Personally I would not be interested in buying something that is simply a clone of sonic, but I would gladly pay for something that takes a fresh spin on Sonic.

My intentions always were more like creating a new installment in the series, with the same physics and moves but with completely original levels (the first zone would *have* to be greenish though), enemies with different behavior than the known ones and new gimmicks.

I would also rather not have a downloadable rom of the game released till some time has passed or a sequel is made (A free rom download could be used to advertise the sequel )

Yeah, this is kind of what I meant by "somehow". I feel like I should give something away, but it seems that the usual way of publishing games includes not releasing a ROM for a certain while, so I don't think this would be any different with me. I would probably release a demo alongside the release of the carts, and would release the full ROM as soon as it was possible.

tepples wrote:As long as the eyes in your character's art style don't scream Sonic universe, there shouldn't be a problem.

The eyes don't, but the muzzle and belly kinda do.

Maybe you could have the cats wear shirts like in Animal Crossing to distract Sega's lawyers even more.

But then we end up in the realm of "things I think would suck in a Sonic game". I think characters that wear shirts look stupid, and make the fact that they don't waer pants really really weird. I already blame SEGA for introducing all sorts of elements I hate in the games, I'm not gonna go and add one of those to my own game, which is supposed to be "untainted". I'll see if I can think of other ways to make it more different from Sonic.

Or speaking of Animal Crossing, maybe you could have a blue hedgehog that looks more like the Able sisters.

Hey! It's Sonic!

Jeroen wrote:The shoes for one make him look like sonic alot....

He wears boots! Sonic wears shoes with buckles. =)

tokumaru wrote:The problem with that idea is that the engine is just part of a game. To actually clone a Sonic game I'd have to draw all the graphics, make all the music and code all the enemies/objects, only to have the same amount of work later for my own game.

I'm just glad that this amount of work hasn't dissuaded you from writing an engine like it has others.

My intentions always were more like creating a new installment in the series, with the same physics and moves but with completely original levels (the first zone would *have* to be greenish though)

Luckily, a greenish first zone is so common that no one owns it.

tepples wrote:I'm just glad that this amount of work hasn't dissuaded you from writing an engine like it has others.

It's my dream, man. The reason I got into videogames, into programming, everything... it's really important to me. I'd feel really empty if I gave up on it.

Luckily, a greenish first zone is so common that no one owns it.

Yeah... Looking at games like Jazz Jackrabbit and knowing they did OK is a relief. I mean, they even used gimmicks like the springs and the signs, which are obviously inspired by Sonic. Even the special stage is a copy of the one in Sonic CD. The only real twist is that Jazz has a gun (and the physics are not as refined).