SNES vs. Genesis audio

Bregalad · Post by **Bregalad** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:28 am

I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.

tokumaru · Post by **tokumaru** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:49 am

I don't know why, for most people, one console has to suck while the other is awesome when it comes to SNES x MD. I like both, and both have games that were designed around the console's features and limitations, and these games were usually good. But many games sucked, no matter the console.

Bregalad · Post by **Bregalad** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:48 am

I fully agree with that. It's just a fact that SNES has much more features and much less limitations than it's direct concurent, and so many people refuse to admit it. This don't mean all genesis games are bad or anything.

For an extreme example, I'm a fan of the NES, but I don't claim the NES is superior to the PS3 in therms of graphics and sound just because I'm a biased fan. I'd expect Sega fants to act the same.

blargg · Post by **blargg** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:55 am

The Genesis has some awesome music, and so does the SNES. The Genesis also has some awful music, and so does the SNES. The Genesis is like a saxophone that can be played by a very talented performer. The SNES is like a keyboard that can beplayed by a very talented performer. As for not being able to enjoy both consoles' music, see cognitive dissonance.

dr_sloppy · Post by **dr_sloppy** » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:36 pm

Bregalad wrote:I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.

BioMetal. Sounds awesome if you play the sound through just about anything other than the usual telly speakers.

Super-Hampster · Post by **Super-Hampster** » Sun May 02, 2010 7:42 pm

There are Genesis games that sound better because the developer did a crappy job on the SuperNES version. However, Pushed to the limits the SuperNES could easily come out on top. Side by side the Genesis version usually sounds like there is something missing. It's the same tune, but it lacks depth.

3gengames · Post by **3gengames** » Mon May 03, 2010 4:16 am

65816.....68000......There's no contest just at the speed factor of how fast the genesis can change, and plus how it has 2 sound processors that can be accessed by 2 computers I think hardware wise the 2 worst sound chips would still be better :/

Maybe it's my biased love for anything Motorola 68xx and 68xxx ^_^

Zepper · Post by **Zepper** » Mon May 03, 2010 8:15 am

- Fact or myth? The Genesis DAC could be much better. Voice samples are an example.

Bregalad · Post by **Bregalad** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:48 am

Well it doesn't matter how good is the DAC if the chip that is behind is not good huh.

65816.....68000......There's no contest just at the speed factor of how fast the genesis can change, and plus how it has 2 sound processors that can be accessed by 2 computers I think hardware wise the 2 worst sound chips would still be better :/

So you're saying 2 bad processors are better than one good ? Sorry this makes no sense. Anyway the SNES has 2 processors too, the 65816 and the SPC700.

Post by **tepples** » Mon May 03, 2010 9:50 am

The Genesis has both the FM chip and the same PSG used in the Master System. Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise. That's two more than the SNES unless you pull the trick of putting chord samples in SPC RAM.

And the Genesis CPUs are more suited to third-party development tools from other platforms. The only other major computing platform with a 65C816 was the Apple IIGS, which got ignored in favor of the PC (8086), Mac (68000), and Amiga (also 68000), and I don't recall seeing the SPC700 ever used elsewhere.

mic_ · Post by **mic_** » Mon May 03, 2010 10:38 am

The subject of SNES vs Genesis (vs TG-16) has already been beaten to death over at the SpritesMind forum. Anyone who feels very strongly about one console or the other could head over there and play their thread necromancer card..

Bregalad · Post by **Bregalad** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:12 am

Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise.

Well you got a point. So yes the Genesis has more channels, but the features of said channels is much inferior to features of SNES'.

This is about the same as C64 vs NES : The NES has more channels, but the features offered the C64's channels are higher.

UncleSporky · Post by **UncleSporky** » Mon May 03, 2010 11:34 am

However, nobody can claim that SNES actually sounds better than Genesis, or vice versa, considering one's perception of audio is a completely personal decision. More channels doesn't mean it sounds better any more than more pixels means it looks better. You may find less people who consider Genesis the better sounding machine, but that doesn't mean they're wrong.

tomaitheous · Post by **tomaitheous** » Mon May 03, 2010 12:34 pm

The SPC has a sampling rate of 32kHz which is almost CD quality, and use gaussian interpolation which remove all artifacts when playing samples at high frequencies. And I don't think the human hear can notice the difference between 32kHz and 44.1 kHz in most cases.

AFIAK, the DSP is doing phase accumulation on a fixed output 32khz system (not a period divide down). The YM2612 is definitely doing phase accumulation, because you need fine resolution steps for frequency modulation (although it's still phase modulation). The 2612 doesn't have any sort of digital filtering (that I know of), so it uses a higher output.. something like 49-51khz. But you get "stepping" artifacts without it, not to mention the artifacts from playing the internal digital sinewave at higher frequencies (sample skips). All Genesis units filter the 2612 to lower than the max output. I suspect this was because of the above, but someone did find out that the 2612 does a funky sequential output of each channel independently - instead of mixing internally and requires external filtering to "group" them instead of just a simpe internall ADDER and a higher res DAC. So maybe it was for both reasons, dunno. Anyway, untouched Genesis systems had 32khz (16khz frequency response) or even lower, after filtering.

Bregalad wrote:
Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise.
Well you got a point. So yes the Genesis has more channels, but the features of said channels is much inferior to features of SNES'.

PSG in the SMS is pretty damn limited, if not grating on the ears. Specifically stating like that is a bit of a misnomer. Relatively speaking, it's probably closer to 8 in real world usage. But don't forget, quite a few Genesis games mixed up to 2 channels on channel six of the FM chip in direct write DAC mode (8bit, but still). No frequency scaling, but you really don't need that for drumkits and such. So technically, you could say up to 11 or so channels in some setups (games that actually did this). The stereo output on the 2612 is also kind of weak. While you do have control over it, it's only hard pan left or right per channel (FM only, PSG is mono). So if you want any sort of "balancing" or panning effect, you have to use 2 FM channel in sync to achieve this effect. Personally, I don't like hard panned channels. Even less so with earphones one (BITD, I thought my Genesis was broken when I used my head phones because of this >_> ). So, doing any real sort of stereo stuff will loose you a channel per pseudo channel on the Genesis.

I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.

Because most techno is about bending or shaping the sound over time. You can simulate low frequency "filter" changes on FM too. FM is perfect for changing the sound over a long period of time. This doesn't mean the SPC can't do techno, as there is "techno" that's pretty simple. But from a composers point of view, FM chip definitely gives you more freedom in this area. I mean, given the small amount of ram of the SPC. It's still subjective, but at least you have some real situations between the two that you can directly compare.

- Fact or myth? The Genesis DAC could be much better. Voice samples are an example.

Voice samples , yeah - but quite a few Genesis games use the DAC for drumkits and such too. You don't really hear the distortion from those type of samples, versus something like voice and such. And in fact, it's not the resolution of the DAC. Or even that it has no volume control over the DAC in that mode, but the delivery system. There's no interrupt, or self feeding DAC, or DMA buffer. The z80 has to use cycle timing to produce output (as well as switch banks with its slow banking method).

You are probably right... but the fact that the DAC is 8-bit doesn't help either. 16-bits would be necessary for something sounding good.

Not even 16bit. 10bit or 12bit would sound great (and it does).

Back to the NES: European-developed games using arpeggio push the 2A03, and Sunsoft bass pushes it further.

Ugh. Arpeggio usually grates on my nerves. It's OK sometimes, but most of the time I don't like. Japanese developers got a long just fine without it on the NES/Famicom.

Good FM and wavetable music sound pretty awesome. Bad FM music is an order of magnitude worse than bad wavetable.

^This. Bad SNES music is just average/forgettable. But bad FM grates on the ear drums.

I've heard plenty of impressive stuff on the Genesis. But BITD, it was all about trying to reach that realistic sound. SNES was cutting edge on this field, but nowadays - SNES comes off as cheesy rather than realistic since we've come along way. And Genesis sound is now more forgiving. The bad stuff is still bad, but the good stuff is great and the impressive technical music compositions on the Genesis just blows my mind. Listening back to a lot of SNES music, is seems clear to me that it (SPC) wasn't really pushed to its potential much, other than square's soft orchestral stuff. Yuko Koshiro is often cited for Genesis music, but his music for Super Adventure Island is awesome on the SNES. Shame he didn't get more involved with the sound chip (he didn't even write the music engine for that game, which he normally did on other systems). A lot of SNES games sounded like they uses stock samples of a dev kit.

As far as sound FX? SNES almost every time. I was very happy with the SNES sound FX (voice or otherwise). I never liked the FM generated sound effects in Genesis games. Even coming directly from NES to Genesis in 1990. I actually prefer NES PSG sound effects over most Genesis style FM sound FX.

Post by **tepples** » Mon May 03, 2010 2:14 pm

tomaitheous wrote:someone did find out that the 2612 does a funky sequential output of each channel independently - instead of mixing internally and requires external filtering to "group" them instead of just a simpe internall ADDER and a higher res DAC.

The sample playback hardware in the Apple IIGS did the same thing.