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Comprehensive Famicom Schematics (Download Link)

Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:23 pm
by Xious
For those so inclined, or in need, here is my archive of Famicom schematics that you've probably never seen anywhere else. They are far more comprehensive than anything you can find on English sites. I don't have U/L access (and I agree with Tepples on this subject), so I can't simply add them to the repository. Perhaps an admin would be so kind as to do so?

The usual disclaimer: By using the schematics on my server, you agree that you free me, my business(es) and my associates of any and all liability stemming directly and/or indirectly from the use of said schematics and you agree that by providing these to a third party, you assume any and all full liability for their use by that third party (although you are permitted to make your own liability limitation agreement with that third party). In other words: Use at your own risk, and please don't come crying to me if you mess something up because you didn't know what you were doing...

Other than that, please enjoy them! That 'Ntd_8bit.jpg' scan, which is all that most people have, is useful, but incomplete.

-Xious

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 12:05 am
by Bregalad
Wow that should have been quite a big work to make them ! It's really great to have shematics.

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:50 am
by Xious
Bregalad wrote:Wow that should have been quite a big work to make them ! It's really great to have shematics.
Thanks... I wish i could take the credit, but I found them by searching through tonnes of Japanese sites, and this is the tip of the iceberg. I've been archiving every Famicom schematic that i can over time, with the idea of making a free, comprehensive and complete hardware reference.

My only work (which was countless hours of poking about searching for stuff in Japanese) was in finding and assembling them into a collection, but I have some of my own schematics to find tune and post eventually, such as an A/V mod kit, and of course my own pinout references, some of which are already on my server. I do plan to redraw them all at print-res as one large schematic for the entire system, and if I do, i will colour-code everything for easy reading.

I'll also put up a schematic for some NES EXP port stuff too, and maybe for a mic mod for the new Type (A/V) Famicom. I helped a guy on FW with this recently, and I should probably draw a schematic for how to do it properly, just as a reference.
I still need to up the schematics for the 4-way adapters too, but those may already be here. If a mod could add the files to the site, it would be awesome. These are good both for the FC and for some NES stuff. I also have schematics on paper for the Vs. Unisystem and the NES somewhere, but i have to find and scan them, and I'd like to see if I can get original printed FC schematics from japan to scan as well.

This, combined with my part number references and my pinout charts should eventually prove invaluable. I'd also like to annotate and document the full system schematic, with help from a few others, so we can have a truly kick-ass diagram of the FC hardware.

To mods/admins: If you U'L these to the site, please only credit me for them as a contributor, not a creator.

To the creators: If you made one of these schematics, please let us know so that you can have proper credit. I pulled these from a variety of places over a long period of time. some of it more than a year ago, and I'm not entirely sure who made them. I don't want to stop on any toes, but i do want to make sure that non-Japanese speakers/readers can access and use them all from a great portal, and I think that NESDev is the perfect place.

-Xious

Re: Comprehensive Famicom Schematics (Download Link)

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:26 am
by tepples
Xious wrote:For those so inclined, or in need, here is my archive of Famicom schematics that you've probably never seen anywhere else. They are far more comprehensive than anything you can find on English sites.
Interesting and potentially useful. But do you have any idea who made each? I'm assuming the wiki founder doesn't want any scans from Nintendo's programming manuals or repair manuals for copyright reasons, though redrawn versions likely qualify under idea-expression divide.
I don't have U/L access (and I agree with Tepples on this subject), so I can't simply add them to the repository. Perhaps an admin would be so kind as to do so?
Create an account on the wiki and PM me your username, and I'll give you the trusted flag later today.

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:00 am
by Xious
Actually, I was talking about placing them in this section:
http://nesdev.com/#Docs, as they'd go well with the rest of the docs there as a singular .ZIP file...

When you consider that http://nesdev.com/Ntd_8bit.jpg is already on this server, and it's an original Nintendo schematic scan, I doubt that there'd be a copyright issue with posting additional scans of the tech service manuals, especially seeing as Nintendo doesn't offer repair on the FC or NES anymore and their own site refers you to eBay and other such places. Not that it matters yet, as all of the files there, except for the NtN_8bit scan are not original Nintendo properties.

Anyhow, my username on the Wiki is the same as here: Xious

I can stick the non-violating FC stuff up there along with my pinouts and whatever I can design for public consumption. When I figure out the author of each, i will note them, but for now just having them up there could be useful. I'll work on it over the next fe days...

Thanks dude!

-Xious

P.S. Nintendo also didn't mark copyright notices on many of their schematics, so they may fall in that murky grey area simply by that fact alone, but I'll be months before I get a chance to even look for them, much less scan them all, so it doesn't yet matter about the legalities. I'm probably better redrawing it all anyway. :)

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:29 am
by tepples
Xious wrote:Actually, I was talking about placing them in this section
To me, the mapper schematics look ideal for articles about the mappers.
all of the files there, except for the NtN_8bit scan are not original Nintendo properties.
Thanks.
Anyhow, my username on the Wiki is the same as here: Xious
Confirmed. Welcome to the wiki.
P.S. Nintendo also didn't mark copyright notices on many of their schematics
A copyright notice on the back of the title page of the book in which the schematic was first published is still a valid copyright notice.
I'm probably better redrawing it all anyway. :)
Especially because it'll be smaller and easier to read. For example, look at this redrawn block diagram of an idealized background section of a PPU, which I drew for Wikipedia.

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:51 am
by hyarion
@tepples
If it helps, I've seen the repair manual (with schematic) for the NES and the schematics in Xious collection doesn't even look close to how nintendo made theirs.

...so i would say it's most likely RE:ed stuff and publish it would not give us trouble with nintendo because of that.

I don't even think the creators of those schematics could claim any kind of copyright on it since these images probably doesn't meet up the threshold of originality (at least not here in sweden from what i've read)

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:58 am
by blargg

Re: Comprehensive Famicom Schematics (Download Link)

Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:40 am
by kyuusaku
tepples wrote:But do you have any idea who made each?
We're having this discussion over at Famicomworld.

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:11 am
by Xious
This is what the site that hosts them looks like in Google translations. I originally found them a while back and never bookmarked the site, but I didn't see a name or anything on it until I clicked on the home link all the way at the bottom of the page after being given a link by kyuusaku.

Aside from the reference URL, there is an email address I didn't notice on the homepage (which is a portal about all sorts of consoles and computers). It looks like a Japanese collection of data, but maybe whomever Enri is made them all. I'm not sure, because of the lack of any copyright mention and also stuff like this:

ほとんどが内部解析(モドキ)なので内容が変る場合があります。

As far as I can tell, Enri wrote the articles about the diagrams and explained quite a lot about them, but there is no mention if Enri made the drawings or if the came from another source, however it is more than likely the case that they are his (or hers?) originally.

If bothered to credit 'Kevin Horton, Ben Heckendorn, and all the folks at NESdev.' on a basic pinout that I did for the NES to FC EXP ports, why would I bother not to credit whomever did these? Frankly, because I hadn't any idea who made them when I posted the links.
I didn't credit anybody, and I didn't attempt to steal the credit for them, so I guess just posting links to them makes me pretentious even though apparently only one other person here seems to have seen them before.

Redrawing a schematic and copyrights though, is a sticky area. Is it enough of a change to claim originality? Well, the only changes are cosmetic, so changes like this are up to a court to decide. In reality, Nintendo is still the copyright holder of a derivative work like this, both because it is not changing how the design of the circuits operates and because they have enough money and lawyers to enforce ownership.

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:26 am
by blargg
I think the point was that
My only work (which was countless hours of poking about searching for stuff in Japanese) was in finding and assembling them into a collection
involved merely mirroring the images on Enri's page.

As a test, I just tried downloading his site, then picking the schematics out. Total time spent: 2 minutes. Result: folder of 21 schematic PNGs, as compared to the 23 in your linked folder.

Going back to what kyuusaku said:
kyuusaku wrote:Wow, so you mean you went through all the trouble of finding Enri's homepage and downloading his schematics?! Mad props!
Is there any factual error in this statement? I don't understand why you're up in arms about his comment.

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:05 am
by tepples
Xious wrote:In reality, Nintendo is still the copyright holder of a derivative work like this, both because it is not changing how the design of the circuits operates
Copyright does not protect functionality. If there is only one way to express the operation of a circuit using a given set of standard symbols, a defense is available that this expression has "merged" with the idea. In these cases, I imagine that only a scan would infringe. See idea-expression divide.
and because they have enough money and lawyers to enforce ownership.
Nintendo could have a bunch of NES-related sites shut down if it cared enough.

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:51 am
by Xious
blargg wrote:I think the point was that
My only work (which was countless hours of poking about searching for stuff in Japanese) was in finding and assembling them into a collection
involved merely mirroring the images on Enri's page.

As a test, I just tried downloading his site, then picking the schematics out. Total time spent: 2 minutes. Result: folder of 21 schematic PNGs, as compared to the 23 in your linked folder.

Going back to what kyuusaku said:
kyuusaku wrote:Wow, so you mean you went through all the trouble of finding Enri's homepage and downloading his schematics?! Mad props!
Is there any factual error in this statement? I don't understand why you're up in arms about his comment.
It was my time locating a site with them, not downloading them that mattered. This isn't all of what I have, but some of it *is* copyrighted and I didn't upload it. I also deleted a few files because I was unsure if I wanted to share them.

Seeking as you asked, I'm irked mainly at the snide and cynical way that kyuusaky implied that I tried to take credit for their creation, which I never did, and hen went on to poke fun at my attempt to translate blurry kanji (before I examined the circuit, admittedly). I didn't even notice that it was a vericap because the image the poster put on FW was tiny and pretty much only showed the text and that he wanted somebody to translate, and I miffed on the syntax.

A vericap can regulate an oscillator, but it also has other uses and all I did was try to do a raw translation of hard to read kanji, and for that I became the target of his ridicule. In fact, a vericap can both be used inline with another cap to provide power to an oscillator, if memory serves, and the oscillator can modulate the current to the vericap as well, so my translation could have partially been accurate, although it wasn't, as further observation would have illuminated if I taken the time to look first at the entire schematic.

Reading kanji is a huge pain for a westerner, and the fact that the kana looked like they were photographed from vaseline and I was looking at a thumbnail sized version of them certainly didn't help. I had to use a chart of all of the commonly used symbols to get what I could out of it as it is... If you reverse what I said in my translation and clean up the syntax, it makes a lot more sense.

All he needed to say was 'These are PNGs created by X from site Y', not things like 'being sexually used by everybody's grandmother'. 'Mad props.'I did implies that I'm trying to show off by pretending that chewing bubble gum is as hard as doing backflips. It's unwelcome sarcasm, given the situation. So, sue me: I didn't remember the source because it was obscure and a bit hard to find the first time. My response may have been over-the-top, but can you blame me? How would you feel if you had a hidden treasure and decided to share it with other people with no possibility of gain, and somebody (whom I frankly didn't recognize at the time) immediately ripped on you for doing it?

Apparently, having a colourful and professional writing style is pretentious too. I'm sorry if I don't sound like a teenager. I write technical manuals and tech articles, so this is my style, but I don't go out of my way to insult people unless they initiate such childlike behaviour. Additionally, I have no trouble speaking my mind.

Nomatter. I'll just keep this kind of stuff to myself from now on and only post original stuff, when I fell like giving it away. I was going to U/L my PCB mask and schematic (for free use) for two types of A/V mod kits that I plan to make, but the heck with that. I'll just make and sell them instead.

I primarily use the schematics for $4016 and $4017 data path information, so I didn't remember off the top of my head what was going on between C5 and TC1, so excuse me for just translating the annotations, which is what the OP requested. That's one of the reasons I want to redraw the schematic, colour code it, and annotate it.For one thing, I'm old, my eyesight sucks, and maybe a tad senile :) so a colour-coded schematic makes reading it much easier. He felt it necessary to make fun of that idea too. Having it at print-res means that I can run it over to Kinkos and have a full-size 36maybe a to print mad of it for easy reference and personal annotation.

If I can get the original Nintendo FC schematics, I'd just copy them (enlarged) for myself, but it's easier to redraw them. Just don't be shocked if I scan stuff and only share it with people that like and trust from now on. I also have some weird stuff on the way to me (the Sharp Twin RF modulator, for example) and I'll do a pinout for it. I find having this stuff all in one place useful, and my goal was to make it easier to find, but apparently he misconstrued that, and instead of PMing me about it, he publicly attempted to ridicule and humiliate me. That'.s nonsense, especially considering the amount of work and money I'm putting into development projects for a console that hasn't been manufactured in sixteen years.

Then again, at least a few people appreciated my sharing of this information, so perhaps after the Xanax kicks in I'll feel nice about it again. I'll stick the pinouts up on the wiki at least, so they are revised and original content, drawing from information of others who are credited in the text file. I just don't know how many people care about these sorts of things at this point, and getting bashed for posting them is a sure way to make me want to to just hoard it all.

I found it insulting, that's all. My intent is to make people aware that they exist, and maybe improve on them by redrawing, a word that he criticized as well ('schematic capture' implies an original design, not a re-capture from existing schematics IMO). Talk about a swift kick in the rear; I just have zero tolerance for that kind of thing. I won''t hold a grudge, but I'm not going to just sit there and take abuse from anybody.

@Tepples: Good info there, thanks!. I had a feeling that schematics fell into their own category. :)

Now I'm going to go to bed so that I may awaken to start making preparations for my long-overdo one-day vacation. 'Nytol'.

-Xious

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:06 am
by koitsu
Xious wrote:Seeking as you asked, I'm irked mainly at the snide and cynical way that kyuusaky implied that I tried to take credit for their creation, which I never did, and hen went on to poke fun at my attempt to translate blurry kanji (before I examined the circuit, admittedly). I didn't even notice that it was a vericap because the image the poster put on FW was tiny and pretty much only showed the text and that he wanted somebody to translate, and I miffed on the syntax.
Welcome to one of the main reasons (to be fair, there were many) why I stopped working on nestech. Portions of the nesdev community do not understand the amount of time it takes to obtain -- and more importantly, organise -- information, regardless of who the source is. (And no, I didn't wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning)

If you're having issues translating Japanese (either kana or Kanji), I would strongly recommend you put in the same amount of effort to finding a good translator. I know of 3 -- one of whom is an American living in Japan doing professional (as in mainstream published) video game programming -- if you'd like me to reach out and ask them.
Xious wrote:Apparently, having a colourful and professional writing style is pretentious too. I'm sorry if I don't sound like a teenager. I write technical manuals and tech articles, so this is my style ...
Don't ever apologise for writing things in your own style. On the other hand, when releasing something to the public, keep in mind that other people will be reading it. You do, to some degree, have to cater to the recommendations of others. Finding a balance between the two takes time. :-)

Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:18 pm
by hyarion
blargg wrote:hyarion, even the scan of the Famicom schematic?
oh, missed that one :oops:
that one do actually look _alot_ like the style in the official NES schematics