SM's Top 100 NES/Famicom games

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:35 pm

Well different tastes for different gamers. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree. Mapmaking and all that really appealed to me as a kid, and it still does today. I like figuring things out for myself whenever possible.

Regarding that one part of Sonic 3, haha yeah I too have memories of getting stuck at that point for a little while, but you really just gave up? I'm not meaning to insult you or anything, but by contrast, I was probably stuck for about 10 minutes before I figured out that you need to hold up and down. I mean, it's not like Sonic 3 used a complicated control scheme. I just tried everything until I figured out what to to do.

Maybe you're best suited for modern games that explicitly give you tutorials and hints every thirty seconds.

Don't get me wrong, I like modern games as much as the next guy, but I hate it when games these days use artificial aids that discourage problem solving by giving you the answers to solutions or making the answers so blatantly obvious that there's no way you could miss them.

From the big progression arrow in Bioshock to button prompt reminders in Batman Arkham City these things are what ruins the experience for me.

It's completely the difference between Metroid on NES and Metroid Fusion on GBA. I do not EVER want to be told where to go or what to do; I want to figure out how to progress on my own.

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:54 pm

You realise you can turn the arrows off in Bioshock right?

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:58 pm

Yeah, I guess that was a poor example, but you get the point - modern game developers seem paranoid that player's will give up if you don't explicitly tell them how to solve even the simplest of problems.

It's very rare that I play something that doesn't at least mildly insult my intelligence as a player these days.

But these are of course, just my opinions. It's completely fine if you don't agree and your top 100 would be very different from mine.

Jeroen · Post by **Jeroen** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:05 pm

Ya I see what you mean. Altough I do indeed think Bioshock is a poor example. Did you see that sequelitis on megaman x?

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:08 pm

Yeah, I was just going to recommend you guys all watch Egoraptor's Sequelitis series. Although not strictly about what I'm saying he does address many of the same issues with modern game design that irritate the hell out of me.

Ironically enough, his jokes about Roll stopping to give advice really DO exist in the PS1 Rockman Complete Works ports as well as Megaman Anniversary Collection for last gen consoles. I don't think he played them or he would have mentioned the connection. It's eerie.

tokumaru · Post by **tokumaru** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:56 pm

Kasumi wrote:(The above image is Sonic 3, Carnival Night Zone's famous Barrel. In case tumblr doesn't like hotlinking)

Yeah, that barrel is famous among Sonic fans. It took me a while to figure out how to get past it... maybe a week or two. I was too much of a Sonic fan to give up! =)

infiniteneslives · Post by **infiniteneslives** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:49 pm

SatoshiMatrix wrote:With only my own wits, I have many memories of drawing my own maps with pencil and paper. This is something I don't think modern gamers would ever consider doing in a million years.

I remember when I was young being disappointed that the high scores weren't saved, and not understanding why. I ended up making a notebook which I attempted to track high scores of all my games. I think I was trying to make a point to my brother that I was better than him.

ccovell · Post by **ccovell** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:08 pm

SatoshiMatrix wrote:Sorry it's a little late. Here's #3.

http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... es-list-3/

Hey, you probably already know about this book, but if you didn't, it gives even more insights into the game's history:

http://www.chrismcovell.com/secret/week ... puter.html

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:13 pm

I guess I do like a certain degree of handholding. I want an in game map, but I don't necessarily want to be told where to go.

I want a DECENT hint if I'm totally stuck, but I don't want it forced upon me.

Skyward Sword is pretty bad in this respect. Fi kept telling me stuff I figured out before she started talking. But I can see how that would be totally useful for people who haven't been playing Zelda their entire lives.

I'll play games with a steep execution curve, or arcade get a high score games or bullet hell games, but if I ever get stuck because I missed a single tree while trying to burn them all instead of the fact that I didn't time things well I'm finding something else to do. In one, I'm stuck because of something where I can see the mistakes I am making. In the other, I am guessing. If I wanted to guess I could play the lottery or something.

I'll play games that beat you down, but never ones that get you lost.

Post by **tepples** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:27 am

Kasumi wrote:At some point around when I had to play the whistle to uncover the entrance to the dungeon, I realized there was be no more fun to be had in the game. The monster blocking the dungeon? I actually THOUGHT of that, but talked myself out of thinking that was the solution. "There is no WAY they're gonna make me leave the dungeon to buy monster bait, after I walked forever just trying to FIND the dungeon."

But my brother who was watching said it was the only thing I hadn't tried. I didn't get the "AHA!" response that is what makes Zelda games fun to me. I was just PISSED I had to go and do that.

I think that was the point. I remember reading in promotional material for Animal Crossing that the concept of a "communication adventure" began with The Legend of Zelda. The idea is that players would stumble upon things while playing, and then they would exchange these stories during recess and after school. At some point, someone would piece everything together and beat the game.

What immediately comes to mind is the Racoon and magic powder, but the hint is not awful just not hand holding. But that is RIGHT IN THE BEGINNING

For anything related to raccoon-like characters, blame Japan's tradition of folkloric monsters including the kappa (sea turtle), tanuki (raccoon dog), kitsune (fox), and red and blue oni (ogres). It takes the same sort of mind that would think up things like jumping in the pile of leaves and getting a pile of tails or Tom Nook putting on a Plumber Suit.

I don't like (most) RPGs, because I feel the entire game model is built around wasting my time.

It's the same mentality behind the loads of unlockables in fifth and sixth generation games: encouraging people to buy games instead of renting them.

I feel the same way about games like Harvest Moon. It feels like I am WORKING, but I am not getting paid.

When I play Mario, I feel like I'm making progress.

Let's compare to Animal Crossing. Before a certain point, I felt like I was making progress paying off my 1.4 million bell debt to Tom Nook. But after that, the endgame content (catch all the fish! catch all the bugs!) felt like work and I quit. I guess I'd be the sort of Pokemon player who quits after beating the Elite Four.

Maybe you're best suited for modern games that explicitly give you tutorials and hints every thirty seconds.

Don't get me wrong, I like modern games as much as the next guy, but I hate it when games these days use artificial aids that discourage problem solving by giving you the answers

Do you hate games like Klax and Thwaite that give game tips before each of the early levels?

Code: Select all

FOUR IN A ROW IS
WORTH TWO KLAXES

YOU CAN DESTROY TWO MISSILES
BY AIMING WHERE PATHS CROSS

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:33 pm

anddddddddd #2!

http://satoshimatrix.wordpress.com/2012 ... es-list-2/

Dwedit · Post by **Dwedit** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:43 pm

I bet I know what #1's going to be...

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:54 pm

Oh shit, you figured it out.

Bregalad · Post by **Bregalad** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:05 am

It's great to see MM2 being so high, it's also one of my favourite NES games !
The extra article is interesting too, I didn't know that Capcom originally didn't want to have a sequel to Mega Man, but that they still managed to make it during their spare time. That's crazy !

SatoshiMatrix · Post by **SatoshiMatrix** » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:58 am

Yeah. Megaman 2 is a complete labour of love. It also features many ideas and enemy concept art originally intended for the first game, but abandoned because of space limitations. Megaman 2 uses a CHR double the size of the first game with more than twice the number of sprites from Megaman 1. Also pointed out by ROM hackers, there are stage remnants from Megaman 1 levels such as Bombman's stage within Megaman 2, meaning the game was build using the same code right over the original, again explaining how the hell it could have possibly be finished in a mere three months.

Unfortunately, Megaman 3 didn't have this luxury - it was build from the ground up and required a much longer development period, but Capcom were very anxious to get it out as soon as possible and were placing enormous pressure on Inafune and his team. Many ideas intended were Megaman 3 were left unimplemented simply because of rushed development.

If Megaman 3 had've been fully realized, if everything that was intended for it was in the game working 100%, I have no doubt in my mind it would have made Megaman 2 pale in comparison, but judging from their released versions, Megaman 2 has the polished edge over #3.