playpower youtube

log in · Post by **log in** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:54 pm

What do you guys think about the playpower tutorials on youtube?
Is it a good guide for people that just started programming?
I could not find any big mistakes but what do i know im a newby

.

I just found it refreshing to see something on video instead of reading text.
And i edited my program with

;---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Makes everything much cleaner to read

Here are the video's and a recap of everything is at the end of the last video part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJxuU7Su ... AAAAAAACAA

NESHomebrew · Post by **NESHomebrew** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:14 pm

Interesting idea. I guess it was ok for the basics, but I don't think it would be that good for someone starting out. He doesn't go into detail, and doesn't define what is hex, binary, decimal etc. I also seem to remember hearing this " LDA $0500 loads 500 into the accumulator"

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:35 pm

I think the main issue with these tutorials is they don't really teach you any ways to really use the 6502 instructions. Nerdy Nights at least tells you what they do, but leaves you to look at the source code to figure out simple things like if statements.

Things like checking bits, subroutines, and 16 bit math should all be covered before you ever start using any NES/PPU registers. Nerdy Nights does cover all these things in week's 7 and 8, but only after trying to teach something complicated like collision detection, background loading...

You should learn how to do program in 6502 before ever starting with the NES. If I wrote a tutorial, I wouldn't advise continuing on to the NES stuff until they could do some fairly complex 6502 problem solving, like how to flip the carry flag without using a branch statement, clc, or sec. Maybe even how to rts someplace without a jsr before it, and without corrupting the stack. Stuff you'd rarely do, but would get your mind thinking about what sorts of problems you could solve with the instructions.

This particular one (Playpower) would actually confuse the hell out of me if I didn't already know what he was doing. In part two, he said we write the address of the palette in two writes. But none of the parts said that lda, and sta are what are making this happen. He never explained that you need to write to that specific address for this to take effect. I'm left to connect to the dots.

He says we clear the memory, but doesn't explain loops or why the code that is there works.

One day I'll stop complaining and write my own tutorial, so people can complain about mine.

edit: I guess another problem I have with online tutorials in general, is that it's too easy to jump ahead. Let's say I asked you to do something like flip the carry without branching. I would probably have to give you an answer in the tutorial, which you could "peek" at. And then you'd say, "Oh, I get why this works." and you will have gained none of the problem solving skills the exercise was for.

bunnyboy · Post by **bunnyboy** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:53 pm

Kasumi wrote:You should learn how to do program in 6502 before ever starting with the NES.

What I found is most people wanting the tutorials were not going to become serious programmers with only the tutorial, so having a graphical feedback gives them a sense of accomplishment so they feel like continuing. If they were more serious they already had general programming concepts from other languages, or were finding those resources in other places. If it is a classroom type environment then the tutorials are pretty bad but not for a single person just poking around. And there are already plenty of 6502 books for class style learning.

It also means keeping the tutorials very simple, not optimizing anything, and skipping over things that don't really need to be understood. Adding concepts like manipulating the stack without a need for it will either confuse people into giving up or just be another thing they gloss over without actually reading.

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:50 pm

Someone shouldn't get a sense of accomplishment if they haven't accomplished anything. I don't think one should even cater a programming tutorial to people who have no interest in being serious programmers.

It leaves people who are serious with only half answers, and people who are not asking us to do things for them.

Adding concepts like manipulating the stack without a need for it will either confuse people into giving up or just be another thing they gloss over without actually reading.

Maybe I'm a negative person, but I'd actually rather see nonserious people quit than get any meaningful progress. It's like people that take a high school art class for an easy A. It wastes the teacher's time, and the time of the students who are serious.

I granted in my edit that people would always gloss over things. That's true no matter what you do outside of a classroom environment. But I don't think stack manipulation is a difficult concept, if one actually understands the stack. I don't think understanding the stack is a difficult concept if one understands RAM. etc, etc. My "hard tasks" obviously would not be the first lesson. You're right, it wouldn't even be necessary. But it would teach problem solving which is an important programming skill. I know I've done math problems with equations that aren't necessary to my life, but they succeeded in teaching me problem solving.

Slightly related, could you look at the very top of this this post and update the tutorial with correct if statements if the ones included in pong1.zip are wrong? It seems to me given a ball traveling right those if statements would make the ball bounce left far before it collides with the paddle.

Your tutorial is still the best general NES/6502 one I've seen and you have taken the initiative while I have not, so sorry I am so critical.

Shiru · Post by **Shiru** » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:08 pm

Kasumi wrote:You should learn how to do program in 6502 before ever starting with the NES.

I think this statement is not correct. You only should, or had in fact, to do that because there were no other options than programming in 6502 assembly. Now there are such options, so situation turns to be the same as with home computers or PC.

In 1980 you were able to write your own games on ZX, C64, PCjr, etc having no slightest idea how CPU works and other low level technical detail. When you write a game or two you were able to decide if you want to do that further, if you need to learn more to make better games, or you don't want to do this and quit without wasting major amout of time on learning things that'll never be useful for you. The same is on modern PC, you can start with Basic, or Flash (with minimal AS usage), or Game Maker, and if you then going to do that more seriously, you can learn C++ and other stuff.

I'm personally would be very glad if there was a Basic compiler available for NES, similar to BasiEgaXorz for Genesis, to smooth out the learning curve even more.

bunnyboy · Post by **bunnyboy** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:18 am

I don't mind the critical comments, but it just sounds like two different teaching philosophies so nothing other than a complete rewrite/reorganization would fit your model. When the time is sucked up writing the tutorial the non serious people don't really waste any more. Except when they can't write coherently

I will have to check out that pong stuff, probably just a copy/paste mistake. It has been a few years tho!

slobu · Post by **slobu** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:39 pm

I did watch the complete series of tutorials awhile ago. I walked away feeling NES dev is possible.. but ASM still seemed like blocks of magic.

I hope PlayPower puts out more tutorials this time using Atalan and especially Scratchalan. Besides cpow I haven't heard of PlayPower volunteers savvy/interested/capable in ASM.

Shiru · Post by **Shiru** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:27 pm

Playpower would get more volunteers, including asm-capable, if they provide a little more information besides of few words about their mission and few 'join us' buttons that lead directly to the register form without any extra info. People like to know what exactly they joining for.

NESHomebrew · Post by **NESHomebrew** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:50 pm

Shiru wrote:Playpower would get more volunteers, including asm-capable, if they provide a little more information besides of few words about their mission and few 'join us' buttons that lead directly to the register form without any extra info. People like to know what exactly they joining for.

I know what you mean. I signed up just to see what is going on. There are over 700 members, but the only one who seems to do anything is the person who created the project. I guess no-carrier has done some stuff and has an interesting slideshow. They have also created a live-cd development environment, but it doesn't look like anything special to me.

Shiru · Post by **Shiru** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:47 am

Just tried to register to check what's going on, and oh my, it is one of the worst registration things I seen - it is manual, and it asks to answer 'how would you like to help' without giving any input on this topic. Like they really don't want to get the help.

And now it seems that the site is actually available without registration, it is just not linked to the main page, but it is redirected to if you cancel the registration process.

Post by **tepples** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:37 am

Can members see a guide to testing programs on hardware? As I understand it, the PowerPak and the keyboard are mutually exclusive: the PowerPak doesn't work on a clone, and the keyboard doesn't work on an NES.

slobu · Post by **slobu** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:34 pm

The PlayPower guys seem to be using homemade boards. Why my PowerPak works on a RetroN3 while not on a keyboard clone still baffles me.