nesdev.org

tokumaru wrote:Developing exclusively on hardware would be a very tedious task, and even if we could absurdly speed up the time it takes to transfer a new binary to the NES

Which an "EPROM emulator" does.

we still wouldn't have all of the debug features offered by emulators.

Unless you're of the mindset that debugging should be done with test-driven development methodology. (Yeah, that was weak.)

There are plenty of ways to make life harder for pirates:

• Put a coprocessor of sorts in the mapper, which handles things like multiplication, crypto, and decompression
• Store most of the game on a big eMMC or microSD soldered onto the cart PCB and copy part of the game to PRG RAM at once, like a big PowerPak or the FDS or like the old CD consoles

Yeah, but how are you going to detect it when you don't know when it's called or what variable it flips? Plus, not just one function, you can use multiple functions that look different but work the same and are in different locations.

And I guess they could, but you could still check for special hardware or something the decoding does, like put something in RAM and also run a checksum routine at times. I'll reply better later and once I think it more through.

3gengames wrote: And I guess they could, but you could still check for special hardware or something the decoding does, like put something in RAM and also run a checksum routine at times. I'll reply better later and once I think it more through.

Someone said it here already, but there will *always* be at least one person in the world with enough determination, interest, and plain-old hacker curiosity to take whatever you create and spare no expense to figure it out. Until machines that we create start creating things that we didn't originally intend for them to create [when we hit the Kurzweil'ian "singularity" in a few years!], no human will ever be able to completely outsmart other humans with a machine he/she has created. Especially when said humans can pretty much do anything.

tokumaru wrote:

80sFREAK wrote:I didn't said your ideas bad, just there is another way to do to make surprize

Then fucking say what's on your mind already, instead of "teasing" everyone with your shitty one-line responses. Seriously 80sFREAK, your participation in this forum is quite annoying. You only show up to say that everyone's ideas are crap, but you hardly ever explain why or say what would be a better way to do things. If you have better ideas in mind, just share them right away or shut up. Nobody thinks you are clever just because you're keeping information from us.

You always talking about emulator. Why?

Because we use emulators for developing? Developing exclusively on hardware would be a very tedious task, and even if we could absurdly speed up the time it takes to transfer a new binary to the NES, we still wouldn't have all of the debug features offered by emulators.

Too much bad words from you to share any information. Keep emulating, i stay by hardware side

2 3gengames you just gave me one interesting idea and i will check it on hardware

2 cpow right, and protection have to be just good enough to knock down 95% of greedy kids

I don't need you to share anything, bro, I just want you to stop the bullshit. If you have something useful to say, say it, otherwise shut up. You look like a dick when you act like you're superior to everyone else.

tokumaru wrote:I don't need you to share anything, bro, I just want you to stop the bullshit. If you have something useful to say, say it, otherwise shut up. You look like a dick when you act like you're superior to everyone else.

I think 80sFREAK is having a problem with the "fucking", "bullshit", and "dick".

Seriously?

Why do you need copy protection?

What are any of you worried about? The NES is 20+ years old.

tepples wrote:I think 80sFREAK is having a problem with the "fucking", "bullshit", and "dick".

RONALD MCGODDAMN DONALD! This Reminds me of Tourettes Guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wcKpoAQKj4

Obscurity is the best copy protection. If nobody wants it, nobody pirates it.

tokumaru wrote:I don't need you to share anything, bro, I just want you to stop the bullshit. If you have something useful to say, say it, otherwise shut up. You look like a dick when you act like you're superior to everyone else.

Why so much butthurt?

2 tepples not really, but threads like this showing who is who - "gimmi it now or shut up" with few variations.

2 Drag as for me it is not about copy protection, which is side effect against emulators, but more features, mainly sound extensions.

80sFREAK wrote:2 Drag as for me it is not about copy protection, which is side effect against emulators, but more features, mainly sound extensions.

In that case, how much time will be spent serving IRQs so that generated samples can be copied from the mapper to the APU?

tepples wrote:

80sFREAK wrote:In that case, how much time will be spent serving IRQs so that generated samples can be copied from the mapper to the APU?

Samples? Copied? what for?

Unlike the cartridge connector of the Famicom, the cartridge connector of the NES has no dedicated audio pins. There are audio pins on the expansion port and general-purpose pins on the cartridge connector that go straight to the expansion port. In theory, an NES game could come with a jumper pack that fits in the expansion port and connects the general-purpose pins to the audio pins. But no NES game ever came with such a jumper pack, and the NES-101 has no expansion port anyway. This means the DMC and timed writes to the DAC at $4011 are the only way to play audio synthesized by the mapper on an unmodified NES.

Of the following possibilities, which were you planning to use?

1. Have such a jumper pack manufactured, include it with each copy of the game, give detailed installation instructions in the manual (including how to pry off the plastic cover that ordinarily covers the expansion port), and warn on the box that the game's audio will be incorrect on the NES-101.
2. Have your mapper calculate audio samples and make samples available for the CPU to read from the mapper and then write to $4011. This is the "copied" to which I was referring.
3. Have your mapper compress synthesized audio to DPCM in real time and then play it back on the DMC with a 1-byte loop.
4. Include a 3.5mm miniplug jack directly on the cartridge, play all audio through the cartridge, and warn on the box that external speakers will be required for use with NES-101 or other RF setups.

Another good way to discourage piracy is to make your game priced affordable and make it easy to purchase. People generally don't pirate games that they can easily buy for cheap. But you bet they'll pirate games that cost a small fortune.

As far as copy protection with hardware, definitely you'd need to design your game to *rely* on your unique hardware. That means you'd need to get away from simple bankswitching setups. As suggested have some sort of processing assistance or just other quirky things you could work into it. If it then costs more to bootleg than to buy it, they'll probably just buy it.

You should also figure that the audience for new NES/Famicom games is different than in a general sense. Perhaps anyone interested in a new game is more inclined not to pirate it? Or maybe not.

tepples wrote:Unlike the cartridge connector of the Famicom, the cartridge connector of the NES has no dedicated audio pins. There are audio pins on the expansion port and general-purpose pins on the cartridge connector that go straight to the expansion port. In theory, an NES game could come with a jumper pack that fits in the expansion port and connects the general-purpose pins to the audio pins. But no NES game ever came with such a jumper pack, and the NES-101 has no expansion port anyway. This means the DMC and timed writes to the DAC at $4011 are the only way to play audio synthesized by the mapper on an unmodified NES.

Of the following possibilities, which were you planning to use?

1. Have such a jumper pack manufactured, include it with each copy of the game, give detailed installation instructions in the manual (including how to pry off the plastic cover that ordinarily covers the expansion port), and warn on the box that the game's audio will be incorrect on the NES-101.
2. Have your mapper calculate audio samples and make samples available for the CPU to read from the mapper and then write to $4011. This is the "copied" to which I was referring.
3. Have your mapper compress synthesized audio to DPCM in real time and then play it back on the DMC with a 1-byte loop.
4. Include a 3.5mm miniplug jack directly on the cartridge, play all audio through the cartridge, and warn on the box that external speakers will be required for use with NES-101 or other RF setups.

Ah, NES... Enjoy the silence

MottZilla wrote:Another good way to discourage piracy is to make your game priced affordable and make it easy to purchase. People generally don't pirate games that they can easily buy for cheap. But you bet they'll pirate games that cost a small fortune.

Absolutely. Mass-production(say chinese) pirates prefer well known titles and time to time changing CHR content. Homebrew pirates(say repro makers) most likely will not do that, if cost of repro(or dealing with custom parts) is above original cart cost.

As far as copy protection with hardware, definitely you'd need to design your game to *rely* on your unique hardware. That means you'd need to get away from simple bankswitching setups. As suggested have some sort of processing assistance or just other quirky things you could work into it. If it then costs more to bootleg than to buy it, they'll probably just buy it.

Not only for that - tricky bank switching might fit your needs better to compare with standart mapper - Konami VRC7 and SunSoft 5B are good example.

You should also figure that the audience for new NES/Famicom games is different than in a general sense. Perhaps anyone interested in a new game is more inclined not to pirate it? Or maybe not.

I think is most likely yes(with small exceptions) plus keep in mind donations