SUROM-8192

infiniteneslives · Post by **infiniteneslives** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:09 am

If you want to pay someone to assemble things for you and even program chips you can always get quick quotes here: http://www.myropcb.com/online-quote/pcb-assembly-quote/

Did something quick with 50 boards each having 5 parts ~150 SMT leads total. It came to $240 if time isn't a concern so somewhere around $5 a board. Granted that's only one option and doesn't include programming parts.

I would estimate that it would take ~40 mins or more to convert a donor cart including the time invested to track down many carts with the proper mapper, and fully clean the case (including label) and pcb connector, desolder ROMs, rewire the PCB, and test.

You don't have to do most of that with new parts. It's especially easy if you have oven SMT soldering abilities which is easily achievable to someone with the experience. With use of a solder screen and paste I would expect you could assemble them ~5-10mins each including the added time of programming the CIC and mapper.

Keep in mind I'm just estimating. But I've done a LOT of work with used stock and it gets time consuming quickly if you have high standards or quality. SMT soldering is stupid fast especially for large quantities, through-hole isn't too bad either if the pin count is low.

Really it all boils down to what the labor costs you. If you're doing the work yourself it's also heavily dependent on your abilities of course. If you're hiring someone the quantity will also play a role. So to fully answer your question Tepples it depends... For what it's worth I will say though that I've got someone who's having me fully assemble and program 50-100 MMC3 boards/games. I'm willing to take on the chore with new parts, I'd never consider doing so with donors for the reasons stated above.

3gengames · Post by **3gengames** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:01 am

If it was worth it, no repro makers would use donors then.

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:30 am

3gengames wrote:If it was worth it, no repro makers would use donors then.

That doesn't hold any water. "If it was worth it to pay for a car wash, no one would do it at home with a hose."

Um, no. Different people value time and money and, well, everything differently. For me, time is most important. I'd rather go to a restaurant than cook a meal. I'd rather pay people to mow the lawn than do it myself. I'd rather go to a car wash than get out the hose. I'd rather pay for a dryer than hang out my clothes.

Naturally all those things are if I could afford them, which is another factor.

Some people enjoy cooking meals, so they save money by spending their time cooking.

Some people can't afford a dryer, so they get the clothes line or hit the laundromat.

There's other factors like knowledge and what you value. I wouldn't even begin to know how to design a board, but I'd be capable of hacking up an old board that doesn't require rewiring. But I ended up not even destroying a BROKEN (messed up CHR) Zelda cartridge, or a copy of Hollywood Squares both of which I got specifically for the purpose just because of how I valued destroying old games. I ended up buying boards from retrousb. The only way I might be able to see myself destroying a game is if there was no board available. But even then, I'd probably not do it. I'm glad people like infiniteneslives and bunnyboy are creating these things so I'm never between a rock and a hard place like that.

They'll get my money. They won't get yours. Cool. But it's no reason for them to stop doing it.

Also, desoldering is zero fun. Some of the repro guys do it because they genuinely love hacking stuff up like that. Like infiniteneslives, I'd rather spend my money skipping that step than my time doing it.

Post by **lidnariq** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:21 am

3gengames wrote:If it was worth it, no repro makers would use donors then.

Are you just willfully ignoring the part where he talked about economies of scale? Making 1 is likely correct for a donor; making 100 with anything but new parts is going to be tedious and unrewarding unless you really like desoldering and rework.

3gengames · Post by **3gengames** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:36 am

Yeah, but the numbers are proportional, unless your time is worth the upwards of $30 an hour, it's economic to use donors. It's a fact. I mean, it's not economical making NES games from the ground up in assembly, but we still do it.

Kasumi · Post by **Kasumi** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:25 pm

But I don't see anyone who said it WASN'T economic to use donors. infiniteneslives even said it was cheaper, but pointed out a time/labor factor you seemed to not be considering. You are the one who made totally absolute statements. (If custom boards were so great, everyone would use them). We are simply saying why that's wrong, not that new boards are the only way.

It's true that, even with the labor we brought up for converting donors, it may still end up being cheaper. But there really is more to things than maximizing profit, and the cost of what you buy.

unless your time is worth the upwards of $30 an hour

It's a personal philosophy, but even if someone works at minimum wage, I think it's good to at least value your free time as at least that high, if not higher.

If I have to do something in my free time that I don't actually want to do, it kills me. It's not economical to make NES games from the ground up, or make frame by frame animation completely alone, but I do it anyway because I enjoy it. Getting a sound and music guy would probably help me spend less time working on it, but I don't enjoy working in groups more than I enjoy the time I'd save. It's economical, sure. But less fun.

infiniteneslives · Post by **infiniteneslives** » Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:13 pm

3gengames wrote:If it was worth it, no repro makers would use donors then.

You're actually proving my (our) point with that statement.

There is only one repro maker currently who has the choice between donors and new because of the skills/funds required to use new parts. Reverse engineering and remaking the MMC1/3, CIC, case etc and recreating it isn't trivial, bunnyboy is the only person that applies to your statement and he chooses new parts...

All other repro makers don't even have the choice to use new parts really, they can't remake the ASIC mappers or CIC currently.

EDIT: However I move that we agree to disagree and get back on subject

80sFREAK · Post by **80sFREAK** » Sun Jul 08, 2012 5:08 am

I can bring one more reason for using donors - recycling.

Roni · Post by **Roni** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:19 am

80sFREAK wrote:I can bring one more reason for using donors - recycling.

except for the fact that most games that make viable donors for projects are among the best games, and most fun to play up until today. I destroyed three of my favorite MMC1 games before making one working mapper 1 devcart, to the chagrin of friends who were really upset that switching between those 3 games would now require an EEPROM burner (and LPT-era computer to operate it).

3gengames · Post by **3gengames** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:22 am

Roni wrote:
80sFREAK wrote:I can bring one more reason for using donors - recycling.
except for the fact that most games that make viable donors for projects are among the best games, and most fun to play up until today. I destroyed three of my favorite MMC1 games before making one working mapper 1 devcart, to the chagrin of friends who were really upset that switching between those 3 games would now require an EEPROM burner (and LPT-era computer to operate it).

that's crap, you make crap games into donors because they're cheap. Mario Golfs and a Golf Power or whatever are great $3ish unwanted NES donors.

nintendo8 · Post by **nintendo8** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:04 pm

I am personally for new parts because every cart made is more likely to function the same as any other cart sold it is important to give all customers the same experience and with donor carts one cart could be in like new condition and the other could have been inserted and taken out of the system so many times that the gold fingers are worn down or there are scrapes on the case. The people who get the better condition cart are would of course be satisfied and the people who accidentally get worn out carts would not be satisfied and they will end up angry because other people got a good cart while they got a bad one. With a new cart every cart would function the same and there is consistent quality and with new parts it requires much less time to make each cart and if there was a general purpose cart that was to be made and if someone was able to order a large quantity the carts would be much cheaper than rewiring an existing cart and would overall result in a better product and some people do not like the idea of a game being destroyed so you have a wider audience of potential buyers and that allows you to order even more and then that lowers the price per cart even more.

80sFREAK · Post by **80sFREAK** » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:22 pm

3gengames wrote:that's crap, you make crap games into donors because they're cheap. Mario Golfs and a Golf Power or whatever are great $3ish unwanted NES donors.

Right.